Are negligent discharges more likely with a semi auto? Obviously they are caused by being stupid (negligent) but it seems every ND I've read about has been with a semi auto. It just seems to me that with the long trigger pull of a double action revolver or the need to cock a single action revolver mixed with the fact that you can't remove a magazine and leave a round in the chamber makes ND less likely with a revolver.
Are negligent discharges more likely with a semi auto?
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Creature
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In my experience, ND has more to do with the operator.
ND's are possible with any kind of firearm. recently there was a story of a ND with a black poweder shotgun.
An ND is not caused by a gun, its caused by a person. and where ever there are absent minded people. there will be ND's. a revolver may be easier to check, but its till possible to ND. place it in the night stand and forget you loaded it. drop a round in and forget which way the cylinder turns. resting the hammer on a loaded chamber in SA revolvers etc.
plenty ( id say trending towards most) pistols are becoming a form of Double action so i doubt the revolvers double action plays a huge part.
An ND is not caused by a gun, its caused by a person. and where ever there are absent minded people. there will be ND's. a revolver may be easier to check, but its till possible to ND. place it in the night stand and forget you loaded it. drop a round in and forget which way the cylinder turns. resting the hammer on a loaded chamber in SA revolvers etc.
plenty ( id say trending towards most) pistols are becoming a form of Double action so i doubt the revolvers double action plays a huge part.
ranger335v
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Negligent fools are ambidextrous, they can get a ND from either hand using anything ever made.
ronto
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No firearm ever made is "stupid proof".
Obviously it's the operator...but yes all things equal, I think they are easier with an "auto" configuration. Swinging out the cylinder covers both the remove source of ammo and check chamber steps in one motion. Forget a step in and auto and BANG! Or get the steps out of sequence and BANG!
It's all relative though, I mean unloading an auto isn't exactly complex by any means. Unloading a firearm and/or safe gun handling is a conscientious task that requires attention not complacency. A complacent person can and will have an ND with anything. Whether or not we like to admit it, we are all the "complacent person" at times, it's just that the redundency of the "4 rules" and circumstance (read dumb luck) saves our butt. Hopefully, our bouts of complacency are very rare and we notice and correct them making it less likely and less severe in the future.
It's all relative though, I mean unloading an auto isn't exactly complex by any means. Unloading a firearm and/or safe gun handling is a conscientious task that requires attention not complacency. A complacent person can and will have an ND with anything. Whether or not we like to admit it, we are all the "complacent person" at times, it's just that the redundency of the "4 rules" and circumstance (read dumb luck) saves our butt. Hopefully, our bouts of complacency are very rare and we notice and correct them making it less likely and less severe in the future.
Regolith
Member
It should be noted that many ND's occurred when the operator was purposely pulling the trigger for one reason or another. I think the action of the firearm has a lot less to do with it than the operator.
Creature
Member
I think ND are more likely w/a undisciplined operator, due to complacency and shorter attention span.
W.E.G.
Member
When I was on the police department 23 years ago, we sure had a lot of ND's with double-action revolvers.
Sheriff Taylor was right. Give 'em one bullet, and make 'em keep it in their pocket until its time to use it. Even then, certain types will STILL find a way to have an ND.
Video demonstration... "smoothly and safely...."
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=291616
Sheriff Taylor was right. Give 'em one bullet, and make 'em keep it in their pocket until its time to use it. Even then, certain types will STILL find a way to have an ND.
Video demonstration... "smoothly and safely...."
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=291616
browningguy
Member
Bark, bark...snap, snap.
Why do people insist on calling every accidental dschage negligent, and then calling the people that have them stupid? The only guy I know personally that has had an AD has a PhD and a genius level IQ.
Hope none of you ever make a mistake, or have an accident.
Why do people insist on calling every accidental dschage negligent, and then calling the people that have them stupid? The only guy I know personally that has had an AD has a PhD and a genius level IQ.
Hope none of you ever make a mistake, or have an accident.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Agreed~!
Yes, ND's are operator induced~!
Yes, ND's are operator induced~!
To #1
Some weapons indeed tend to be more prone for ADs. The Army saw this with the 1911 vs. the Beretta and 38 service revolver. The 1911 had a lot more.
Yes in the end, it’s all operator induced. However, some designs and mechanisms on weapons tend to make it more forgiving. Realize, that many people even if quote on quote professionally trained (as the liberal would call them) might only shoot twice a year to qualify. There are many who carry guns and work for government agencies that have little practice and poor habits with their weapon. A safety, trigger weight, easily visible hammer/position tend to probably be some of the variables that work towards reducing some of the ADs. For example, the M9 gives indication when a round is in the chamber; it has a positive safety, a high trigger weight/double action. You’ll still have ADs, but the design lends itself for even an idiot to avoid them.
Some weapons indeed tend to be more prone for ADs. The Army saw this with the 1911 vs. the Beretta and 38 service revolver. The 1911 had a lot more.
Yes in the end, it’s all operator induced. However, some designs and mechanisms on weapons tend to make it more forgiving. Realize, that many people even if quote on quote professionally trained (as the liberal would call them) might only shoot twice a year to qualify. There are many who carry guns and work for government agencies that have little practice and poor habits with their weapon. A safety, trigger weight, easily visible hammer/position tend to probably be some of the variables that work towards reducing some of the ADs. For example, the M9 gives indication when a round is in the chamber; it has a positive safety, a high trigger weight/double action. You’ll still have ADs, but the design lends itself for even an idiot to avoid them.
tkendrick
Member
The only ND I've ever had was with a Ruger Blackhawk. You have to cock the hammer to load it.
I was at a range, loading the gun, when someone interrupted me to ask me a question. I turned toward him, keeping the pistol pointed downrange and toward the ground, answered him, and turned back toward the targets.
Next thing I knew BOOM, 41 magnum bullet into the dirt about 20 inches in front of my toe.
In allowing myself to be distracted, I had unconsciously slid my finger back over the trigger.
In this case, the gun doesn't matter, the operator does.
However...... I have a question for all the B&W's out there who are always claiming the their is no such thing as an accidental discharge. You pick up a gun that you have never used, or seen, etc. say a brand new AR. You are at the range, load the gun and it goes off due to a mechanical problem? Still blame that on the operator?
I was at a range, loading the gun, when someone interrupted me to ask me a question. I turned toward him, keeping the pistol pointed downrange and toward the ground, answered him, and turned back toward the targets.
Next thing I knew BOOM, 41 magnum bullet into the dirt about 20 inches in front of my toe.
In allowing myself to be distracted, I had unconsciously slid my finger back over the trigger.
In this case, the gun doesn't matter, the operator does.
However...... I have a question for all the B&W's out there who are always claiming the their is no such thing as an accidental discharge. You pick up a gun that you have never used, or seen, etc. say a brand new AR. You are at the range, load the gun and it goes off due to a mechanical problem? Still blame that on the operator?
GhostlyKarliion
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everyone has a "stupid moment" one of the smartest guys i know called me up to ask if water would make a good binder for a a liquid fuel...
everyone has a "oh crap I'm an idiot" thought every once and a while, so yes when someone has a ND it is generally because they were being stupid. not saying that they are always stupid, but it only takes a moment of stupidity to ruin your day, one of my good buddies shot his index finger off because he had a stupid moment, he is very smart and usually has a high level of situational awareness, but for the price of one stupid .75 seconds he has to go through life with 9 fingers.
don't get offended when someone says you were being stupid, look at the situation and try to learn what you can do better next time.
and yes, I do think that since the inception of hammerless automatic cocking semi autos their design does lend itself towards operator error more often.
everyone has a "oh crap I'm an idiot" thought every once and a while, so yes when someone has a ND it is generally because they were being stupid. not saying that they are always stupid, but it only takes a moment of stupidity to ruin your day, one of my good buddies shot his index finger off because he had a stupid moment, he is very smart and usually has a high level of situational awareness, but for the price of one stupid .75 seconds he has to go through life with 9 fingers.
don't get offended when someone says you were being stupid, look at the situation and try to learn what you can do better next time.
and yes, I do think that since the inception of hammerless automatic cocking semi autos their design does lend itself towards operator error more often.
Jeff F
Member
I think 99.9% of the NDs have something to do with the trigger being pulled with a finger or something getting inside the trigger guard. If it went off from some kind of mechanical failure then it would be an accidental discharge not a negligent discharge.
Clipper
Member
I was testing my recently (self) converted 7.63-to-9mm broomhandle Mauser a couple days ago, and found out it needs some more work. It was failing to feed (I suspect the 7.63 follower that I have not changed or modified is misalligning the rounds in the magazine), and I would have to feed it one at a time. About one in three times I tripped the bolt, the hammer would fall when the action came into battery and cause the gun to fire. This was one of the things I was aware could happen, and was prepared for it, but I would categorize it as AD, since it wasn't operator error, as I knew anything (including possibly full auto fire) was possible, and was prepared for it, but was caused by a mechanical shortcoming I must now find and rectify.
were you at a range? or pointing the gun into a contained area able to capture the round?
if not, and your sitting at your work bench and fire off a round through the wall that is an ND. comfort yourself if you want but the gun wasnt pointed in a safe direction and a round was fired as a direct result of your actions as you knew the gun to be functioning improperly and chose to continue anyway. . thats negligence
Timthinker
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An accidential discharge is possible with any firearm as some of our members have stated. That being the case, I have witnessed more accidents with semi-autos than revolvers. I believe the design of the semi-auto, and the person holding it, both contribute to this problem. Fortunately, no one was ever injured in these discharges because the weapons were pointed down and away from everyone. Praise the Lord for a certain degree of caution.
Timthinker
Timthinker
Clipper
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As a matter of fact, I WAS at the (private) range, I WAS pointing at the berm, and I DID repeat the action 4 or 5 times ON PURPOSE to attempt to gain further insight as to the cause so I could attempt to repair it after I got it home. You may find it hard to believe, but there are people other than you who actually think about what they're doing. Sorry to disappoint you...
357-8-times
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I would think having a grip safety, as 1911s and many auto's do, would make it far less suseptable to ND since you need to firmly grasp the grip to make it fire. A revolver that has been cocked seems much more likely to have an AD while decocking.
Sharps-shooter
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I've seen accidental discharges with varios types of guns. Semi-autos are pretty popular, so that could account for part of the perceived difference. Also, with some guns like an SKS, I think the firing pin can get stuck and then it Keeps discharging, so you could have a bunch of ad's at once. There's a pump gun at my mom's house that discharges as soon as you chamber a round. For some reason it's owner won't get it fixed. Mighty handy for making it look like an accident, I guess.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
I think that semi-autos tend to be more popular, especially people who aren't serious gun aficionados. So IMO, it would stand to reason that with more semi autos out there, more NDs would happen with them.
General Geoff
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I dunno, I don't see any reason why a semi auto would be more prone to an ND than a bolt or lever action...
pheasant slayer
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My watch commander shot himself in the foot under the table at a restaurant while playing with another officer's weapon. Any fool can accomplish it with any weapon if they try hard enough. It's the person, not the gun.
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