controversy oh controversy...

[PT1911]

so.. i was thinking the other day, what makes a semi-auto?
seems most see a semi-auto as a mag fed "auto-loader." to which I have to disagree... there is essentially 3 types of guns in my view. Full auto, semi-auto, and single shot (pumps, levers, and single actions) can arguably make up a 4th) so I was just wondering why a double action revolver is not added to the semi-auto discussion. it seems that if something goes bang every time you pull the trigger without reloading, it is a semi-automatic. Peronally I think the aforementioned pumps, levers, and single actions are semi-autos as well as they can be fired just as quickly by well-practiced individuals and do not require reloading between shots (in the aspect of adding more rounds to the gun), but I understand if that view is not accepted... so... thoughts?

 

[Claude Clay]

because the revolver doesnt reset automatically--the trigger does 2 things. the [semi] auto bleeds some of the energy created from the fired round to re-set the action and the trigger only does one thing-allow the hammer to fall.
you see a car from the outside, but to the driver it is different automatic vrs standard transmission, yes?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I suppose if you want to attach arbitrary definitions to the phrase "semi-auto", you can believe it is whatever you want. There is a specific definition about the operation of a firearm that excludes double-action revolvers and pumps/lever action, regardless of how quickly they can be fired. It's about the mechanical operation of the firearm, not the speed or expertise with which one can use it.

 

[jerkface11]

A semi auto reloads itself. A double action revolver's cylinder doesn't move till you start the trigger stroke. It's all powered by you. Oh and you left out bolt action.

 

[Shear_stress]

According to the definitions I've seen, pumps, levers and single actions are not single shots any more than semi-autos are. They are manually operated repeaters. So are double action revolvers.

Semi-autos are "self-loading", where the firing of the cartridge (whether through gas or recoil operation) ejects and loads another round.

Edited to add: looks like everybody jumped on this at the same time

 

[jerkface11]

Someone needs to show this guy a Mateba.

 

[PT1911]

all very valid points and just about as condescending as I was expecting, but it is the definition of semi-auto that I am putting into question... Full auto- pull the trigger, continued fire (reloading itself) without continued trigger pulls.

semi-auto- pull the trigger, fires, pull the trigger, fires...etc.. without the need to reload.

I see that a "true" semi-auto reloads itself, but cant the same be said of a double action revolver? it reloads itself during each trigger pull (reloads meaning the next live round comes into position without further intervention)

 

[PT1911]

I am not new to guns and I understand the principles behing classifications and uses for each type of gun.. I have experience and own pumps, levers, Bolt actions, singles (shot), doubles(shot)single actions, double actions, and several "semi-autos." I understand their use and am proficient with all of them. my knowledge in guns is not in question, I do not know everything, but my level of knowledge is beyond what some of these responses are attempting to suggest.

 

[deadin]

I suppose one could consider a revolver a "semi-auto" under your definition, but one with a really crappy trigger pull.
Your premises would also do away with the definition of a "repeater". After all, it’s just a small step from having the trigger perform a mechanical function (rotating the cylinder and cocking the hammer) in addition to releasing the sear to having a lever thrown or pump cycled to accomplish the same thing. Might as well toss in bolt actions, too. It’s just another small step.
In fact, anything that doesn’t require separate loading of powder, bullet and primer might also fit such a loose definition.
I think I will stick with the accepted definitions.

 

[SaMx]

semi-auto means the empty cartridge is extracted and ejected, and a new cartridge is loaded into the chamber automatically, without input from the user. Double action revolvers aren't semi-auto because the cartridges are loaded and extracted from the chamber manually, and the new chamber is brought into battery by the trigger pull (i.e. user input).

 

[PT1911]

I see nothing loose about that definition... fires repeatedly without no intervention other than a trigger pull...

as far as trigger pull, when compared to my 608, the only guns I have handled that rival its trigger are 1911's

does look like i have hit a nerve..

 

[Cannonball888]

I can't agree with OP's definition of semi-auto or autoloader to include revolvers. A revolver isn't automatically loaded, because the power of the loading comes directly from power of your finger. That is not automation. For automation the power would have to come from a nonhuman source such as the expansion of gases from combustion.

 

[PT1911]

semi-auto means the empty cartridge is extracted and ejected, and a new cartridge is loaded into the chamber automatically, without input from the user. Double action revolvers aren't semi-auto because the cartridges are loaded and extracted from the chamber manually, and the new chamber is brought into battery by the trigger pull (i.e. user input).

oh.. its all so clear now...


lol.. I know the principles behind a semi-auto, own several... I appreciate that you are one of the few not being opinionated and condescending.

the entire point of this thread is not to educate me on the differences between types of guns as to bring to light how misleading firearm terms can be. instead, everyone gets offended attempts to make me look as though i have no idea how a gun works or how to delineate the classifications.

I am proud to have never used the term "repeater" !!!!!

 

[jerkface11]

If the gun doesn't put the next round into the chamber on it's own it isn't a semi auto.

 

[youngda9]

You're getting the correct answers...try listening.

 

[youngda9]

full auto shoots indefinetly and re-loads with single trigger pull.

semi auto shoots once and re-loads with single trigger pull.

/thread

 

[PT1911]

If the gun doesn't put the next round into the chamber on it's own it isn't a semi auto.

last I checked, a revolver is capable of doing just that.

You're getting the correct answers...try listening.

I havent said anyone was incorrect and I am listening to all input...I knew this was a controversial topic when I posted, HENCE THE TITLE!!!
if you have something to add to the discussion, even the basics of how a gun works, great, but that post did nothing but make you look ignoranat and intolerant, I have neither put down any responses nor said anyone was wrong about anything...

 

[PT1911]

semi auto shoots once and re-loads with single trigger pull.

as I have said repeatedly, a revolver does just that, only just prior to firing(during the trigger pull) rather than after the initial trigger pull (as in a mag fed semi-auto)

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

last I checked, a revolver is capable of doing just that.

The chambers of a revolver are loaded manually. There is no mechanism to load or unload the chambers based on pulling the trigger or the recoil/gas operation of the firearm.

 

[PT1911]

The chambers of a revolver are loaded manually. There is no mechanism to load or unload the chambers based on pulling the trigger or the recoil/gas operation of the firearm.

I know and fully agree with you there...however, some could say the chambers of a revolver are the same as the mag of a semi-auto in that respect. both require the intervention of manual loading. the only difference being unloading..

 

[youngda9]

Interesting how OP asks a question, gets his answer, proceeds to tell us how knowledgeable he is about firearms, and then argues with the answers that every person to reply is telling him. Seems like someone's just in here trolling for a good argument.


P.S. It isn't a controversial topic at all.

From Wikipedia: "A semi-automatic, or self-loading firearm is a gun that after being fired, ejects the empty round that has been fired, loads a new cartridge, and cocks itself. "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm

 

[Justin]

I know and fully agree with you there...however, some could say the chambers of a revolver are the same as the mag of a semi-auto.

You could. But you'd be wrong. Sure, both a magazine and a cylinder store ammunition in a way that makes it ready to use, but the similarities end there.

The bottom line is this: A semi-auto uses some form of energy generated from firing to cycle the next round. This can be accomplished by diverting gas from the fired round, or taking advantage of inertia to cycle the next round.

A revolver does not do any of this. All of the energy used to cycle and fire the next round is generated manually by pulling the trigger. There is no energy derived from the expended round. By definition, if firing the next round is accomplished purely through manual means, then it cannot be considered automatic or semi-automatic.

Duh.

 

[zminer]

These are your arguments, as far as I can tell:

if something goes bang every time you pull the trigger without reloading, it is a semi-automatic

I see that a "true" semi-auto reloads itself, but cant the same be said of a double action revolver? it reloads itself during each trigger pull (reloads meaning the next live round comes into position without further intervention)

What you seem to be doing is making the definition of "semi-automatic" overly broad, which is why people are disagreeing with you. You yourself acknowledge that there is a difference between a "true" semi-auto and some other unspecified kind of semi-auto. The only disagreement here is that everyone else is choosing to make those into two separate categories - revolvers (which reload the next round through the manual operation of the trigger), and autoloaders (which reload through the cycling of the bolt, powered by the ignition of the gas from the previous round, in conjunction with power from the spring in the magazine). The distinction being made, then, is the source of the force which causes the next round to cycle into position. If you choose to say that that distinction is not meaningful, then yeah, you can argue that they are all the same thing. But if others don't believe that, then you're just arguing about what the definition "should" be.

Really, it's all about definitions. You can make an overly broad claim that "firearms" means "things that use gunpowder to throw a projectile" - and make no finer distinctions - but you should expect people to get upset when you try to say that cannons and Glocks are really the same thing. By your definition, they are the same thing - it's just that others are making finer distinctions than you are.

 

[Titan6]

I know and fully agree with you there...however, some could say the chambers of a revolver are the same as the mag of a semi-auto in that respect. both require the intervention of manual loading. the only difference being unloading..

Well you would be wrong then for the reasons already explained in the thread. If you want to be deliberately obtuse go ahead. But we get that enough already from the other side.

 

[jackstinson]

"semi auto shoots once and re-loads with single trigger pull."

as I have said repeatedly, a revolver does just that, only just prior to firing (during the trigger pull) rather than after the initial trigger pull (as in a mag fed semi-auto)

Not really.
As has been stated, the DA revolver's chambers are reloaded by hand, then repeated trigger pulls will fire.
A semi-auto or full auto's chamber is "automatically" reloaded by the cycling of the mechanism (using a portion of the cartridge power for such). I honestly do not understand the "controversy".

Additionally, it may be said that most revolvers use "muscle power" to manually cycle the mechanism and semi/auto uses the "cartridge's power" to automatically cycle the mechanism.
Of course, there are the Webley-Fosbery and Mateba automatic revolvers which combined the revolving cylinder with cartridge force cycling.