Are Pistol Caliber Carbines relevant these days?
- Thread starter Panzercat
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I have and they're not all that bad.
I don't find the 9mm or 45acp carbines all that useful for most applications there are better choices hence I got rid of mine. Magnum lever guns are another story IMHO they'll handle any job a 9mm or 45 would and delve into larger game. 44 mag and 45 Colt will knock on the door of the ballistics of the black powder rounds that nearly wiped out the buffalo. For the military suppressed applications the 300 Blackout is a vastly superior round as it effectively doubles the range suppressed and can go supersonic with a mag change and reach out 3X as far as a 9mm would.
Shawn Dodson
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A pistol caliber carbine of the same caliber as your pistol, and which accepts that same magazines as your pistol, makes for a great Emergency Preparedness Rifle (EPR) in the aftermath of a major natural disaster or during civil disorder.
Perhaps the best advantage of a pistol caliber carbine is terminal performance against automotive windshield glass and sheetmetal. Ammunition such as Gold Dot, HST, etc., are designed to perform well against automobiles as a result of the FBI's law enforcement ammunition criteria.
To achieve the same level of performance against automobiles with 5.56mm you're going to spend $20-$30 for a box of 20 rounds of premium ammo. For that same amount you can purchase a 50 round box of premium pistol ammo (that you can use in both your pistol AND your carbine).
As a general rule, 5.56mm does not perform well against automotive windshield glass unless you purchase expensive premium ammo (or if you handload - expensive premium bullets). As counter intuitive as it seems, even M855 "green tip" does not perform well against windshield glass (standard 55gr M193 actually outperforms M855 "green tip", albeit slightly, against automotive windshield glass).
In my experience pistol caliber carbines have more felt recoil and muzzle jump than 5.56mm.
Perhaps the best advantage of a pistol caliber carbine is terminal performance against automotive windshield glass and sheetmetal. Ammunition such as Gold Dot, HST, etc., are designed to perform well against automobiles as a result of the FBI's law enforcement ammunition criteria.
To achieve the same level of performance against automobiles with 5.56mm you're going to spend $20-$30 for a box of 20 rounds of premium ammo. For that same amount you can purchase a 50 round box of premium pistol ammo (that you can use in both your pistol AND your carbine).
As a general rule, 5.56mm does not perform well against automotive windshield glass unless you purchase expensive premium ammo (or if you handload - expensive premium bullets). As counter intuitive as it seems, even M855 "green tip" does not perform well against windshield glass (standard 55gr M193 actually outperforms M855 "green tip", albeit slightly, against automotive windshield glass).
In my experience pistol caliber carbines have more felt recoil and muzzle jump than 5.56mm.
BCRider
Member
A point that I brought up in the other thread of yours should likely be here instead.
Having heard AR's shooting 5.56/.223 at indoor ranges and how shockingly loud they are even WITH ear protection I strongly suspect that using and shooting an AR in a house during an attack would be so loud that it would cause pain and some temporary disorientation to the shooter. Of course it would do the same to the attacker if by some chance the gun missed. But still these things are HELLISHLY LOUD at the best of times and INSANELY LOUD when used in an indoor setting. A semi auto PCC in one of the popular handgun calibers would be much less loud. Oh sure, the shooter's ears would still be ringing after an event. But it wouldn't smack them upside the head like the sound of an AR in 5.56.
Of course the same can be said for shooting a .357 or .44Mag indoors without ear protection as would likely be the case during a home breakin or invasion event.
On the other hand a PCC in 9, .40 or .45 would tend to be LESS noisy than even the handguns shooting the same round. So it's quite possible that given all the effects going on what with adrenaline and noise that a PCC might just be a better choice FOR THIS APPLICATION than an AR.
Again I know that the common belief is that the adrenaline manages to prevent folks even noticing the noise of the shots. But at some point it's not just a sound but an actual pressure blow to the ears which will affect balance and thinking for a brief moment. What pressure level generates such a blow? I wonder if any research has been done on it. I certainly don't know for sure. However I do know that even with hearing protectors the sound of an AR going off that close to me is more powerful than any handgun I've shot. Even the .460S&W didn't make me flinch from the shock to my ears like the sharp crack of an AR.
Does this mean that I think the AR isn't a good CQB rifle? Not at all. When used by trained military and police that use it a lot and have come up with methods that deal with the indoor noise shock issues I'm sure it's a fine system. But for us reg'lar folks that might need to deal with a possible night intruder once or perhaps twice in a lifetime? Perhaps a less "sound shocky" sort of option would be a better way to go.
Having heard AR's shooting 5.56/.223 at indoor ranges and how shockingly loud they are even WITH ear protection I strongly suspect that using and shooting an AR in a house during an attack would be so loud that it would cause pain and some temporary disorientation to the shooter. Of course it would do the same to the attacker if by some chance the gun missed. But still these things are HELLISHLY LOUD at the best of times and INSANELY LOUD when used in an indoor setting. A semi auto PCC in one of the popular handgun calibers would be much less loud. Oh sure, the shooter's ears would still be ringing after an event. But it wouldn't smack them upside the head like the sound of an AR in 5.56.
Of course the same can be said for shooting a .357 or .44Mag indoors without ear protection as would likely be the case during a home breakin or invasion event.
On the other hand a PCC in 9, .40 or .45 would tend to be LESS noisy than even the handguns shooting the same round. So it's quite possible that given all the effects going on what with adrenaline and noise that a PCC might just be a better choice FOR THIS APPLICATION than an AR.
Again I know that the common belief is that the adrenaline manages to prevent folks even noticing the noise of the shots. But at some point it's not just a sound but an actual pressure blow to the ears which will affect balance and thinking for a brief moment. What pressure level generates such a blow? I wonder if any research has been done on it. I certainly don't know for sure. However I do know that even with hearing protectors the sound of an AR going off that close to me is more powerful than any handgun I've shot. Even the .460S&W didn't make me flinch from the shock to my ears like the sharp crack of an AR.
Does this mean that I think the AR isn't a good CQB rifle? Not at all. When used by trained military and police that use it a lot and have come up with methods that deal with the indoor noise shock issues I'm sure it's a fine system. But for us reg'lar folks that might need to deal with a possible night intruder once or perhaps twice in a lifetime? Perhaps a less "sound shocky" sort of option would be a better way to go.
PorkChopsMmm
Member
I just bought a PCC, well a 357 lever gun, to go with my 357 revolver. I don't have dreams of doing barrel rolls and getting tactical with it but it is perfect for my needs -- shorter range critter getting and home defense carbine. I've had/have AR's, both 5.56 and 308, and other rifles and none of them can do what this what can do -- put a hurt on something within 100 yards and not destroy my ear drums if I have to shoot something late at night or from the tractor.
It also weighs less and carries easier than any other carbine I can think of. So yes, a 5.56 AR definitely has more power, more rounds, and can take more accessories, but in my case that AR would be inside the house and not out in the field with me because it isn't as easy to carry and is just too loud.
It also weighs less and carries easier than any other carbine I can think of. So yes, a 5.56 AR definitely has more power, more rounds, and can take more accessories, but in my case that AR would be inside the house and not out in the field with me because it isn't as easy to carry and is just too loud.
Don357
Member
It really depends on the situation, or should I say application. For a home defence weapon, they are ideal. Less chance of a thru and thru shot, or a wall penetration than a 'rifle' round, yet more powerful than a handgun in the same caliber. Ammo is generally less expensive. And in a hunting capacity, they served the cowboys well for many years, and in my area, a 100 yd shot is stretching it. So an appropriate pistol caliber will sufffice. The issue of ammo compatibility has already been discussed. Are they a rifle? No, but they DO have a place. Would I want a pistol caliber AR? No, but a lever gun or a carbine such as a Marlin Camp Carbine, M1 Carbine, or the Ruger .44mag carbine would be great.
Jason_W
Member
It's also worth noting that at common in-home distances, a .357 or .44 mag fired from a carbine will deliver as much or more energy to a target than a .223/5.56.
mljdeckard
Member
Don, you do realize tha 5.56 is less likely to overpenetrate walls or humans?
Jason_W
Member
Penetration is more a function of bullet composition and sectional density velocity or caliber.
A .223 FMJ will out-penetrate a .44 mag 180 grain HP at carbine velocity.
A .223 FMJ will out-penetrate a .44 mag 180 grain HP at carbine velocity.
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Deer_Freak
Member.
I can see a use for large pistol calibers in a carbine. I have a 9mm carbine that is a lot of fun to shoot. A 357 mag would be awesome. I have shot the Kel Tec 5.56 pistol. I was not impressed. It wasn't accurate like a rifle and it wasn't small enough to be useful as a pistol. If someone made a fold up stock for the kel tec it would be useful and a NFA headache.
It depends on "the job" doesn't it?
While a cowboy lever action is at home in a scabbard on ranch duty, it's not terribly suited to SWAT ops.
Though at one time lawmen all over the country used them--as that was about all there was.
I really like my 'pistol caliber' lever gun as a plinker and as a powerful short range big game rifle, it's not as flexible for taking long range shots or engaging multiple targets, (without a LOT of training) as say an M4 style carbine or 'short rifle'.
As an HD platform? Pistol caliber carbines are pretty handy in general.
While a cowboy lever action is at home in a scabbard on ranch duty, it's not terribly suited to SWAT ops.
Though at one time lawmen all over the country used them--as that was about all there was.
I really like my 'pistol caliber' lever gun as a plinker and as a powerful short range big game rifle, it's not as flexible for taking long range shots or engaging multiple targets, (without a LOT of training) as say an M4 style carbine or 'short rifle'.
As an HD platform? Pistol caliber carbines are pretty handy in general.
chris in va
Member
I want a PCC simply because I can cast my own bullets for it, unlike the AR that requires a jacketed round that may not be available.
FireInCairo
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I think certain pistol chambered carbines are a great alternative to an AR for home defense. When I was looking for an AR platform during the beginning of the panic, I strongly considered some carbines that take Glock magazines as they would essentially offer all I was looking for in an AR (high capacity magazines, lightweight, easy indoor handling, and plenty enough power to defend a home if need be). All of which would come at a much more reasonable price even in the midst of a panic spree.
A Keltec Sub2000 in 9mm or .40 caliber that takes Glock high-capacity magazines could be had for less than half the money AR's were going for a couple months ago. It's a great option.
Marlin Camp Carbine, anyone?
A Keltec Sub2000 in 9mm or .40 caliber that takes Glock high-capacity magazines could be had for less than half the money AR's were going for a couple months ago. It's a great option.
Marlin Camp Carbine, anyone?
Texan Scott
Member
For home defense, a shotgun is likely the best option; for combat/ militia/ law enforcement etc, an AR or AK; for deer, a 243; for hogs, a 308... every application has a different "best" tool.
For those of us who don't own, can't afford, or won't carry all of them at once, a 357 lever gun is light, handy, and can be made to fill any of those roles inside 100 yds or so. It's not necessarily the "best" choice for anything, but it works.
Of course, the commonality of caliber and ease of reloading are very valid points as well.
When it all goes bad, and civil law and social order go out the window, a small house outside of town, a well-stocked freezer chest, two revolvers, a carbine, and a big green ammo can full of 357 sounds like a good plan for a month or three.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go buy a 90 day supply of TP.
For those of us who don't own, can't afford, or won't carry all of them at once, a 357 lever gun is light, handy, and can be made to fill any of those roles inside 100 yds or so. It's not necessarily the "best" choice for anything, but it works.
Of course, the commonality of caliber and ease of reloading are very valid points as well.
When it all goes bad, and civil law and social order go out the window, a small house outside of town, a well-stocked freezer chest, two revolvers, a carbine, and a big green ammo can full of 357 sounds like a good plan for a month or three.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go buy a 90 day supply of TP.
Bohemus
Member
I countries where there is no "SBR" bulls-hit its rather funn gun to shoot. Its much better idea than .223 fireball maker with 7,5" barrell
You can use it at ranges where rifles are forbide, ammo is the same as for your pistol.
Iam saving up for CZ Scorpion EVO3.
You can use it at ranges where rifles are forbide, ammo is the same as for your pistol.
Iam saving up for CZ Scorpion EVO3.
wally
Member
With current ammo prices they make a lot of sense for 100 yard and under rifle shooting. I agree they make even more sense when done as an SBR and a suppressor.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The first repeating rifles, the Spencer and Henry, were essentially glorified pistols. For about 20 years there were no repeaters that would handle full-power rifle cartridges. So you had a choice -- you could have a full power rifle, but it had to be a single shot, or you could have a repeater chambered for a pistol-power cartridge.
Nowadays, however, you can have almnost any cartridge in a repeater. And while a lot of people like carbines in .357 or .44 Mag, they won't do anything a .30-30 can't do.
Nowadays, however, you can have almnost any cartridge in a repeater. And while a lot of people like carbines in .357 or .44 Mag, they won't do anything a .30-30 can't do.
To me there are a couple valid reasons for a PCC
1) for those who need a HD long arm and can not handle the recoil of a shotgun or can afford an AR
2) for suppressed shooting
3)I'm prob forgetting something
That said, I don't have one and prob never will I use a shotgun for HD and a 30-30 or my .308 for anything else
1) for those who need a HD long arm and can not handle the recoil of a shotgun or can afford an AR
2) for suppressed shooting
3)I'm prob forgetting something
That said, I don't have one and prob never will I use a shotgun for HD and a 30-30 or my .308 for anything else
kimbershot
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does my uzi carbine count?
i have a vector uzi carbine in 45acp. it's fairly accurate, packs a punch within a reasonable range, it's cheap to shoot--i cast my own and the operative word is--i shoot it (less than 5 cents/round).
also have a stash of primers, lead, brass and powder that will keep me going for a long, long time. there are always lookers when i step up to the line to pop off a few and i don't even think about breaking the bank. just waiting on my sbr tax stamp..
i have a vector uzi carbine in 45acp. it's fairly accurate, packs a punch within a reasonable range, it's cheap to shoot--i cast my own and the operative word is--i shoot it (less than 5 cents/round).
also have a stash of primers, lead, brass and powder that will keep me going for a long, long time. there are always lookers when i step up to the line to pop off a few and i don't even think about breaking the bank. just waiting on my sbr tax stamp..
Vern Humphrey
Member
Go to a smaller gauge shotgun.
In carbine-length barrels (16" is the legal minimum) most pistol cartridges are super-sonic.
BCRider
Member
Depending on the situation that TP could well be as important as a good ammo supply....
I must admit to being a trifle more thoughtful on this sort of topic since I only just "discovered" "The Walking Dead" on Netflix. Watching 3 episodes a night really puts you into that whole EOTWAWKI frame of mind.....
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I have owned a few different sub 2000s and shot used even more. I really like the gun. that said they are not something I would choose to take the place of a quality AR. They should, and normally have cost probably a 3rd of what a decent AR costs. There is a reason for that. While the Sub2K is a neat little gun, the build quality is pretty poor. Of the three I owned all had some sort of issues. Most were simply really poor fit and finish and things I could sort myself. One didn't fold/unfold and lock properly. My experience was they were reliable with anything other than aluminum cased ammo (which Kel tec tells you up front). However, the sights are fragile and pretty poor overall. The trigger is pretty bad. Reports of them being used in carbine courses have included a lot of reports of failures and breakage, which does not surprise me based on their construction. It probably would be OK for HD as the actual task of that is unlikely to be super demanding. It is more the training and use to become real proficient with one that I wonder how it would fare. All in all even if I wanted a PCC for a primary defensive weapon I think I'd look at something other than a sub2K.
Maybe in some states, anywhere else in the US for an extra $200 (which is nothing over the service life of the gun) I can get shorter barrel. Moreover if one is into shooting sub sonics then one likely has bought a suppressor and is already into the NFA game. If one bought the gun for shooting subsonics and bought a suppressor one also either bought a gun suited to do so or buys and more likely loads their ammo for that purpose.
Hold more rounds. Be cheaper and easier to reload for. Use the same ammo as my revolver. Those are a few things they do that my 30/30 can't.
backbencher
Member
The PCC is a legal animal. Often it is a stocked pistol w/ the minimum length bbl that meets legal requirements, which is 16". It certainly improves the ballistics of the pistol round, and if semi-auto, either has magazine compatibility or greatly increases the magazine capacity. If we could stock our handguns properly, I submit the PCC would largely disappear.
On the same topic, I submit one good thing has come from the expired AWB - the Kel-Tec Sub 2000. A PCC without a folding stock - so it has a folding bbl, and folds to 16". Handy when you can't legally carry a handgun about. But again, a legal animal - if we were able to always carry a handgun about, we wouldn't need the Sub 2000.
On the same topic, I submit one good thing has come from the expired AWB - the Kel-Tec Sub 2000. A PCC without a folding stock - so it has a folding bbl, and folds to 16". Handy when you can't legally carry a handgun about. But again, a legal animal - if we were able to always carry a handgun about, we wouldn't need the Sub 2000.
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