Light carbine concept

[cluttonfred]

I've been thinking about an inexpensive carbines, both pistol-caliber (9mm,.40 S&W, .45 ACP) and intermediate rifle caliber (.223, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39mm). I have in mind something cheaper than an AR-15, cheaper even than a Mini-14 or SU-16 but not as cheap or ugly as a Hi Point.

It would likely be gas-operated with an adjustable (or replaceable) gas port to suit different cartridges and facilitate a cost-saving modular design in which only the bolt (or bolt face), barrel (perhaps with integral feed ramp) and magazine vary between calibers. The Degtyarev system with locking flaps as used in the DP, RPD, etc. is rugged and simple, though of course semi-automatic and firing from a closed bolt in this case.

Standard magazine capacity would be ten rounds or less for clean lines, handiness and political correctness in most places, perhaps a rotary or helical magazine flush with the stock. A rotary magazine might also work well with rimmed cartridges allowing additional caliber options in the future even if it meant a potbellied look like a miniature M1941 Johnson.

The stock would be a one-piece, sporting style for simplicity, light carbon composite and likely integrating the firing mechanism into the stock as in polymer pistols. Sling swivels or perhaps a German-style pin for a sling on the side of the stock would be standard.

Adjustable, GI-style aperture sights would be standard, perhaps using a protected AR-15-type front post. A single Picatinny rail for a scope or red-dot would be standard, with a few threaded inserts here and there for optional short Picatinny rails if desired.

The kicker here is weight. The goal of this level of simplicity, without the bells and whistles and with a modest magazine capacity, would be an empty weight under 2 kg, so under 4.4 lbs. Such a light little carbine would be handy as a truck gun, backwoods deer gun, police patrol carbine, plinker, home defense weapon, you name it.

The look of the gun would not be unlike a synthetic-stock M1 Carbine or a basic Mini-14. This John C. Garand-designed competitor to the M1 Carbine is pretty close, including the open-topped stock though without the top-mounted magazine.

OK, I've got my fireproof underwear on, so speak up. What do you think? Workable, practical, desirable or not?

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[1911NUT]

Most definately, about the only cheap carbines out there are sks's. I would be highly interested if anything came of this idea. Are you a gunsmith and thinking of making some our just someone thinking out loud. Especially in my A.O. this rifle would be worth its weight in gold.

 

[Tirod]

That's pretty light.

An AR with polymer lower can come close in a lot of ways. But what you trade off in weight you also lose in durability. Many barebones hunting carbines can't and don't meet the weight criteria, even after 50 years of designing and manufacturing.

6 pounds, yes. Then the AR with pencil barrel. slickside upper, and a carbon free float will get there. It's been posted up with pictures more than once over the years.

It will be difficult to do with other civilian firearms because they don't have the market demand for parts to build or customize them. There aren't as many vendors, and they don't breed as much competition as the AR.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd buy one in .223.

 

[Tallinar]

You mention the use of pistol cartridges like 9mm and .45 ACP, but also the use of a gas system.

Perhaps you were referring to use of the gas system for only the rifle cartridges you were referring to. If not, then I guess I don't see the benefit of a gas-operated pistol carbine. In a carbine with the cartridges you're describing, wouldn't this be better-accomplished with a blow-back mechanism? I'm not a big fan of the concept of gas-operated pistol cartridge guns as it discourages the use of cast bullets.

Such a light little carbine would be handy as a truck gun, backwoods deer gun, police patrol carbine, plinker, home defense weapon, you name it.

For the purposes mentioned, I think the 16 to 20" lever carbine like a model 92 already fits the bill. It may not be semi-auto, but for the applications mentioned I don't believe it needs to be.

My 2 cents.

 

[Last Knight]

If you're going to do it in .223, you should go with a STANAG mag like the SU-16. That's the Mini-14s greatest flaw, I think, the proprietary magazines that are expensive as hell. You'll be fairly hard pressed to keep the price point low enough to compete with the variety of cheap ARs out there, though.

 

[Captain33036]

This is exactly what I have been looking for as well and not having much luck.

I ended up buying a Hi Point 9mm Carbine and really like it. It is accurate, reliable and fun. But, it is fueling the desire for a higher quality, lightweight, pistol cal carbine.

Taurus recently announced that their 9mm carbine (based on the HK) was available, but they do not seem to be. At any rate, several web sites and the Taurus press release show that this gun is going to be 9 lbs or so.

SO.....I am back to thinking about putting together a 9mm AR using a Plum Crazy lower and 9mm upper AR. But...that is far from inexpensive. And you need a couple extra components....9mm buffer and mag well block....

You would think there would be a significant market. I too would love to have some suggestions.

Best

J

 

[cluttonfred]

Wow, that was fast. Some responses below, but not in the order of the comments above...

--I fixed where it said "loaded empty weight" which was a typo. I meant 4.4 lbs (2.0 kg) empty weight.

--A wood and steel M1 Carbine weighs 5.2 lb (2.4 kg) empty, the original version of that Garand prototype weighed only 4.9 lb (2.2 kg) empty. Those are both with an 18" barrel, this design could do with just 16". A Kel-Tech SU-16B weighs just a shade over 2.0 kg empty at 4.5 lbs. With modern materals, this should certainly be attainable. In fact, with a modest 5-10 round magazine capacity, maybe 2.0 kg loaded should be the goal!

--With the higher-powered pistol calibers, a well-designed gas-operated action should be lighter than an equivalent blowback design that relies on inertia for safety. Yes, that would make it problematic to use cast bullets, but in those common calibers and for those kinds of uses that should not be an issue for the vast majority of shooters who use factory or surplus ammo.

--The AR-15 already has it's fans and role, but high magazine capacity, flash suppressors, rails, etc. all add weight. I am not looking to replicate the AR-15 and would not want to be locked into using AR-15 parts or STANAG magazines. The modularity and standardization of the AR-15 series comes at a weight penalty--look at the SU-16 for comparison. Even the old Ruger .44 mag Deerfield carbine weighed just 6.25 lbs in wood and steel.

--Nope, I am not a gunmaker, this is not a design coming to your local gun shop anytime soon, I'm just a guy with some ideas having a conversation.

 

[Kendal Black]

Would an inertial lock (sorta like Benelli shotgun) bear consideration here? No problem with cast bullets. Furthermore you don't need to clean the gas system--there isn't one. How light and simple can something like this be made?
http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/inertia_driven_system.php

Light weight and low cost are conflicting goals, in some sense. Eliminating parts and assemblies seems the only route that serves both goals.

 

[JustinJ]

Hipoints are so cheap because of low quality control and poor materials used. I'm not sure you'll get much cheaper than current guns like SW AR sporter or Keltek SU16 without it being at hipoint quality level.

 

[Tallinar]

With the higher-powered pistol calibers, a well-designed gas-operated action should be lighter than an equivalent blowback design that relies on inertia for safety. Yes, that would make it problematic to use cast bullets, but in those common calibers and for those kinds of uses that should not be an issue for the vast majority of shooters who use factory or surplus ammo.

I'm not quite convinced that this represents the vast majority of shooters, but I won't go there as not to detract from the subject at hand.

Are there existing examples of pistol-cartridge gas-operated guns out there aside from the Desert Eagle that someone can reference? I haven't considered the notion of a gas system being lighter than blowback for the pistol cartridges mentioned - but then I've never had reason to go looking for such a gun. A blowback mechanism for those cartridges would be quite light as it stands, so I'd be curious to see what would really be gained (err..lost) in weight.

 

[451 Detonics]

HK P7 is gas operated, so was the Steyr GB. The CZ-52 is a roller lock design, another type of action that could be considered.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I think you 're detracting from the utility of the piece by making it modular.

pick a caliber and a barrel length and optimize for that.

 

[henschman]

6 lbs. is about as light as I would ever need a rifle to be. I would rather just carry a lightweight AR for this type of role and have affordable (and full capacity) mags, pistol grip, stock in line with barrel, flat top for optics/irons, and customizable for whatever I'm doing with it.

 

[cluttonfred]

Are there existing examples of pistol-cartridge gas-operated guns out there aside from the Desert Eagle that someone can reference? I haven't considered the notion of a gas system being lighter than blowback for the pistol cartridges mentioned - but then I've never had reason to go looking for such a gun. A blowback mechanism for those cartridges would be quite light as it stands, so I'd be curious to see what would really be gained (err..lost) in weight.

Some would argue that .30 Carbine is just a souped up pistol cartridge, in which case your example would be over 6.5 million M1 Carbine variants.

 

[cluttonfred]

Would an inertial lock (sorta like Benelli shotgun) bear consideration here? No problem with cast bullets. Furthermore you don't need to clean the gas system--there isn't one. How light and simple can something like this be made?
http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/inertia_driven_system.php

That's a very interesting concept, but that would be a short recoil design, like the M1941 Johnson. Historically, such guns have been less robust than gas-operated designs and more likely to jam in thee field.

Light weight and low cost are conflicting goals, in some sense. Eliminating parts and assemblies seems the only route that serves both goals.

 

[JShirley]

Make it in 7.62x25mm, and sell it for less than $400, and I'm sold. FN should have started with the x25mm and the basic M16 format instead of overcomplicating matters with the P90 and a less effective cartridge.

 

[montgomery381]

I just want to show my support for this idea. If you make it or find someone who does let me know because I want one.

 

[amprecon]

I think a Mini-14 would be the best commercially available option considering your requirements. Personally, I'd get one in 6.8spc. Very handy rifles.

 

[S. Hill]

4.5 lbs and shooting a .45 ACP? Even with a good muzzle brake, the recoil is going to be stout! We use a KDF brake, and you can really tell the difference between the 9mm and the .45 ACP.

Speaking as the manufacturer of the Thureon Defense carbines, we've tried to trim weight wherever we can. Our best effort ended up with a finished weight of just over 6 lbs. This is with a lightweight barrel, aluminum free-floating handguard, and aluminum (billet) upper and lower receiver.

We are using a simple blow-back system, so the bolt assembly is heavier than if you used some other locking system. I don't see where we would be able to trim out 1.5 - 2 lb. from the design.

Our pricing is in the range you mentioned with a retail price around $660. This is a picture of our latest version, a 9mm that uses Glock magazines.

 

[FSJeeper]

As previously mentioned, a lever action would meet your specs and is just as useful as a semi auto. I have these as a back-up to my other guns in case semi's are for some reason outlawed or confiscated. People often forget how handy these lever actions really are.

The Kel Tech Sub 2000 also meets your specs and at 4lbs and foldable to a compact 16" package is something to consider. Can also use your pistol mags. I have one to go with my SIG 226's. It is reliable and surprisingly accurate.

 

[Zerodefect]

That's a nice looking little carbine. I like the one without the barrel block. Like in the Gunblast review the best, I use Aimpoints on everything.

 

[S. Hill]

Many of our customers want to use iron sights, even if they are just used in a back-up mode. We've made a "gas block" front sight mount to accommodate them.

 

[cluttonfred]

Nice to hear from you, S. Hill, those carbines of yours are neat guns. I am surprised to hear your comment on the recoil. I would think that recoil that's manageable one-handed from a pistol would also be manageable with two hands and a shoulder from a carbine. On the weight, I do think that many of the modern gun designs are needlessly heavy. In your gun's case, the AR-15 look and modularity are certainly selling points, but a plain wood stock would be lighter, and something in carbon fiber even lighter still. Something like an M1 Carbine shows the advantage of simplicity, that Garand carbine even more so.

 

[fragout]

You may be interested in using a Ram-line synthetic stock for your M1 Carbine idea, as they are lighter in weight compared to the wood GI stocks that I have weighed. Mine is right at the 4.5lbs mark,(No sling or magazine) and is very easy to control while firing it with one hand only.

Cutting the bbl back to 16 inches would also shave a few ounces off.


Using 5 or 10rd mags would be less in weight, compared to the std 15rd mags.

Something such as the Ultimak hg rail for the M1 Carbine would meet your requirement for a rail, but blow your weight restrictions out of the water.

110gr soft points are very capable of taking hogs, and whitetail deer inside of 100yds from my experiences using it for this purpose.


11B