Light carbine concept

[kludge]

I've been wanting Kel-Tec to make a SU-30 Carbine for a long time. Would use GI mags and have a $399 street price.

I have an IBM Carbine and it's a fantastic shooter, but I'm not ever going to shoot hundreds much less thousands of rounds through it. That's what my new Kel-Tec would be for.

 

[S. Hill]

Nice to hear from you, S. Hill, those carbines of yours are neat guns. I am surprised to hear your comment on the recoil. I would think that recoil that's manageable one-handed from a pistol would also be manageable with two hands and a shoulder from a carbine.

I'm thinking that the shooter feels the weight of the bolt/buffer assembly coming back against his shoulder. With a handgun or some firearm with a gas or piston system, the weight of the reciprocating parts is reduced. I think this would have the effect of reducing the felt recoil.

If you take a look at the Tommy gun, that thing weighed 10 - 12 lbs. It was still a beast to shoot, notorious for walking up off the target. That may be partly due to the stock design....

 

[-v-]

I think you could get there if you took a SU-16 and replaced the long-stroke piston with a DI system. It would certainly shave you a few more ounces from the action. Also adding lightening cuts to the receiver to eliminate/replace non-force bearing metal with polymer filler would also save you weight.

 

[kozak6]

It's going to be very difficult. Price will be the big kicker.

Look up the Leader Dynamics carbine. Something like that with polymer construction might be a viable path.

 

[greyling22]

I've got the m1 carbine in a in a choate synthetic stock. I can't say it's any lighter than a wood stocked version. What I really wish would happen is for ruger to re-release their semi auto deerfield carbine, but scaled down to 357 mag, a folding synthetic stock, and with a 10 to 15 round mag modeled off a scaled up .22 banana mag. I think it's very doable, and that it would sell like hotcakes.

barring that miracle happening, I think a rossi 92 equipped with a synthetic stock might fill the bill.

 

[cluttonfred]

I am still kicking around this concept to try to develop a clear set of design parameters, especially on magazine design and caliber.

I still like the idea of a compact design in which a magazine of modest capacity (say 10 rounds) does not project past the line of the stock for handiness.

I am wondering about the pros and cons of a Johnson or Krag-Jorgenson rotary magazine vs. a typical removable or blind box magazine as used in most bolt guns.

I am also wondering whether stripper clip loading might be desirable in this kind of gun to make up for the modest capacity in situations in which that matters.

Comments welcome.

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[mortablunt]

You're going to need a lot of polymer and to find ways to trim weight wherever possible. You might have to go without a pistol grip and rails are pretty heavy too, being made of steel. In my opinion, a skeleton stock or something similar would be necessary.

A thing you have to remember about the M1941 Johnson is that it was rather heavy, coming in at about 12 or so pounds unloaded. Even for rifles of its time, it was quite a thing to lug around.

You might have to look at a manual action of some sort like a pump, lever, or bolt. That saves weight an complexity and of these, a pump or straight pullback bolt is likely to be the simplest and lightest option. I support the idea of loading by stripper clip rather than magazine as that reduces the amount of materials that must be used for the gun.

If you can pull this off, that would be great.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, Mortablunt, for the comments.. If you go back to the beginning of the thread, the concept is quite similar to an even more simplified version of an M1 Carbine, so a pistol grip is not planned, the rails would be optional and removable and semi-auto operation is a given. Also, IIRC, the empty weight of the M1 Garand and the M1941 Johnson are almost exactly the same. I am certainly not interested in building a modern version of the M1941 Johnson or any other gun, just brainstorming on what design features might work well together. Cheers, Matthew

 

[kozak6]

A gas operated roller lock might also be an option. It was the choice for the TRW LMR. It's the same basic idea as the Degtyarev, except with rollers instead of flaps. Rollers are likely significantly cheaper to machine as well.

A fixed magazine would severely limit sales, and especially if it was horrifically ugly like the Johnson's pot belly. You would be better off if it took ordinary AR mags, and was available with a bullet button for California. Also, a 10 round AR mag can fit flush.

I don't know how much cheaper you could make your rifle than Keltec. If the choice was between your low-cap fixed mag rifle and an SU16 for just a little more, I'd go for the Keltec for the easy hi-cap mags.