Are The M1 Carbine and Ruger 10/22 Related?

[BryanP]

They may have changed the rules, but at one time you could edit without an account. I corrected several minor errors that way.

And if you really care about it, make an account. As has been pointed out, it's free.

Or you could just gripe and moan.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Like others said there is no relationship. Its like when people claim the ak47 is a stolen copy of the StG44 from Germany.

 

[Raygun]

Actually all four rifles use different operating systems:

Carbine --- tappet-type gas system
Garand --- direct impingement gas system
M14 --- White gas cut-off and expansion system
Mini-14 --- vented gas piston design (I don't know the name for it)

And those operating systems can be classified as either long stroke or short stroke gas piston systems. All except the Garand are short stroke gas piston systems.

The Garand uses a long stroke gas piston system. It has a piston/cylinder arrangement in which the piston (as part of the operating rod) is under pressure for a distance longer than its diameter. Direct impingement systems don't have pistons at all.

I'm not real sure what Ruger calls the Mini-14's gas system, but I'd call it a fixed piston short stroke system (same for the AR18 for that matter). The piston is fixed and the cylinder (just a hole in the end of the operating rod) is what reciprocates. It's a short stroke system because excess gas (pressure) is vented before the cylinder travels rearward a distance longer than the diameter of the piston.

Like others said there is no relationship. Its like when people claim the ak47 is a stolen copy of the StG44 from Germany.

Yeah. "Stolen copy" is a bit much, but I think "influenced by" is pretty safe to say.

In the case of the M1 Carbine and Ruger 10/22, I'd say that any similarity is solely aesthetic.

 

[rustymaggot]

paratrooper stocks for a ruger 10/22 do exist. i used to have one. no idea who made it tho.

 

[AZ Jeff]

And those operating systems can be classified as either long stroke or short stroke gas piston systems. All except the Garand are short stroke gas piston systems.

While the gas system of the M14 is a form of "short stroke", it's a very special and unique system. What sets it apart is that the gas volume introduced into the gas cylinder is limited, and then shut off from further gas once the piston begins to move. The other short stroke systems mentioned do not limit the gas entrance, but merely regulate the timing of the exhaust.

 

[Grump]

It's a short stroke system because excess gas (pressure) is vented before the cylinder travels rearward a distance longer than the diameter of the piston.

By the looks of that fixed piston, I'd say it vents after the cylinder/op rod travels rearward almost the entire length of the fired case. Because of the "dwell time" distance before the bolt unlocks, and the additional 1/2-inch or so of bolt camming, the case is probably a bit less than halfway extracted before the system vents.

Remember, the op rod/cylinder travels farther than the bolt does in these rotating-bolt systems.

The AK system's trigger group has geometry, parts and engagement schemes adapted from the M1 Garand's trigger group. Spring locations and operation are different, and the safety element is botched, ergonomically, but I believe that Mr. Kalashnikov openly described his trigger system as being inspired by the Garand.

I see Wikipedia as being slightly less reliable than gunrags, but on any topic under the sun. The gunrags are perhaps more reliable than we give them credit for, but are full of re-hashed superficiality.

 

[Raygun]

By the looks of that fixed piston, I'd say it vents after the cylinder/op rod travels rearward almost the entire length of the fired case. Because of the "dwell time" distance before the bolt unlocks, and the additional 1/2-inch or so of bolt camming, the case is probably a bit less than halfway extracted before the system vents.

It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to look at the Mini-14, but if I recall correctly, the cylinder is overbored for most of its length and only contacts the piston head for a short distance at the end of the cylinder, allowing pressure to drop once the cylinder retracts. If that's not the case, then I guess I would be wrong and it would be a long stroke system.

 

[AZ Jeff]

To be classified as a long-stroke gas system, the operating rod/gas piston/bolt assembly needs to be acted upon by primary gas pressure for most, if not all, of it's rearward travel. A good example of this is the M1 Garand gas system.

The Mini-14 has a gas system that acts upon the operating rod/gas cylinder for only a short portion of it's rearward stroke, and hence cannot be considered a "long stroke" system, as such.

The Mini-14 has some sort of short stroke system, but, exactly what to call it is sort of up in the air.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Ruger .44 Magnum carbine was patterned after the LOOK and
Style of the M1 carbine since the M1 carbine was (and still is)
popular with US shooters.

Ruger 10/22 was patterned after the Ruger .44 carbine.
If I recall correctly, the .44 preceded the 10/22.

Other popular lil brother/big brother pairs include the
Marlin 39 .22 and Marlin 336 .30-30, and Remington's
pump and semi-auto rifles.

As pointed out before, like AK47 and StG44,
similar concept but different design.

 

[Raygun]

To be classified as a long-stroke gas system, the operating rod/gas piston/bolt assembly needs to be acted upon by primary gas pressure for most, if not all, of it's rearward travel.

From what I have been made to understand, this is not correct. If the distance traveled under pressure is greater than the diameter of the piston, the system is "long stroke".

 

[AZ Jeff]

From what I have been made to understand, this is not correct. If the distance traveled under pressure is greater than the diameter of the piston, the system is "long stroke".

Please cite your source for such a description. That description would suggest that the AK, FAL, and many other gas operated rifles are "long stroke", and they are certainly not described as such.

 

[colt.45]

mabey the look of the 10/22. but the operation is nothing simular! a rotating bolt gas piston operated rifle, and a blow-back .22. not even remotely simular. but their stocks do look alike.