Are the smallest gauges doomed?

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Bud Tugly

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I'm a big fan of the .410 shotgun, but I'm a bit worried about the current trends. Banning lead for waterfowl is old news, but now many areas are banning lead for ALL hunting.

If you shoot a 12, 16, or even 20 gauge you can switch to steel shot without losing too much, but what about those of us who prefer the .410 or 28 gauge? Steel shot loads for us are wimpy enough that these guns become pretty much ineffective for most hunting. Sure we could always switch to one of the non-toxic heavy-shot loads, but then you're talking several bucks per shell.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I can visualize lead shot being banned for hunting everywhere in the future. If that happens I can see my beloved .410's and maybe even the 28 gauge becoming mostly wall-hangers with no practical value as hunting weapons any more.
 
There are already non-toxic alternatives to steel. They're not cheap, but they're prolific.

I don't think that 28 and .410 will go away, even with non-toxic regulations.

However, I am amazed at how many people seem to enjoy missing birds with their too-slow 12 Gauges, still thinking that "a 12 Gauge is good for everything!"
 
The price of the material used in the non steel non toxics has dropped drastically, just like they went up. Expect the ammo makers to try to keep the prices up there, but if shooters will hold out a little the prices will come down. Supply and demand. They better. I don't shoot that many shots at ducks and I will spend $2 or $3 a shot, but not for doves.
If they can price us out of shooting using "green" press it will be a gun haters dream on all levels.
 
Well, a sneaky back-door way of cutting down on gun use would be to just ban lead shot outright. It would be like: "Well we aren't opposed to guns themselves, but of course lead is nasty for the environment so we have to ban it".

The upshot would be that shooting effective loads would suddenly become 3-4 times more expensive unless you could switch to steel. I'm afraid that would mean the .410, the 28 gauge, and nearly all vintage shotguns from the pre-steel era would only be used by an elite few who could afford to pay $3 per shell.

Wouldn't this pretty much be a death blow for the smaller shotguns?
 
Nobody else is really using the 28 or .410 now, though.

When I go dove hunting I'm the odd man out with a 20. Everyone else has some lunker 12.

I don't have a 28, though I do have a 16. 28 makes no sense to me except in a scaled gun. Too many 28s are less agile than their 20 gauge counterparts. So the only ones I want start a bit up there in price.
 
ArmedBear, I hope you've got your asbestos underwear on. There's a whole bunch of folks who love their 28's and .410's and they might not agree with you.
 
However, I am amazed at how many people seem to enjoy missing birds with their too-slow 12 Gauges, still thinking that "a 12 Gauge is good for everything!"

It still is the gauge for everything with the right gun. Problem is most casual shooters would rather own 5 guns that cost $500. a piece instead of 1 that cost $2500.

To get good handling you need good design and that means money.
I don't know why anybody is surprised when a pump or auto handles like a pig on the end of a snow shovel.
They handle well for their price range.

Please forgive the drift.
 
There's a whole bunch of folks who love their 28's and .410's and they might not agree with you.

I don't know anyone who isn't a seasoned shotgunner (i.e. elite few), who is willing to spend more to shoot the gun -- it already does cost more to shoot than a 12 or 20.

When did "elite few" become an insult? It's not, in my book.

It still is the gauge for everything with the right gun.

No. It's not. Doesn't matter if it's a good gun (though I agree with you about the rest of your post).

Ever hunt Valley Quail? Wouldn't want to use a goose gun for quail, or a quail gun for goose, any more than I'd want to putt with a driver or drive with a putter.
 
Heck, I guess I'm just a simple hillbilly, but I've used a Mossberg 500 12ga shotgun for all of my hunting/shotgunning needs in the past (growing up in OH the 12 ga shotgun was the go-to gun for everything from deer, to turkey, to birds, to small woodland creatures).

The idea that a person "needs" to specialize or buy a custom/expensive shotgun to hunt with is a bit beyond me. Similarly, I haven't seen a need for a 20, 28, or .410 shotgun in my collection, which is why I don't own one yet. I'm not saying that they don't have a place, but I prefer the availability of 12 ga ammunition! And, we are all gun guys/gals around here, so I'll never cast judgement on anyone for buying another gun :)

But, that doesn't mean you NEED to have one to hunt very successfully. And, at the end of the day, I suppose that is why these guns seem to be drifting into obscurity to some degree.

(when I was a kid I saw a lot more of the smaller gauges floating around... Maybe it is just me, my perception, and the crowd I currently run with, but I used to see 12ga, 16ga, 20ga, 28ga, and .410 shotgun around. Now I mostly see 12 and 20)
 
How could this question ever come up. The pertinent question is if the 12 ga is doomed. I see no reason for its existence except for the military and defense. There is no sporting purpose in my book for it.

I cant stand 12 gauges and wish they never were. I hate going to the gun stores and seeing them wall to wall full of used 12s. The shop I used to work at would give horrible buy prices on them to keep our stock of them down a little bit because we had too many of them.
 
How could this question ever come up. The pertinent question is if the 12 ga is doomed. I see no reason for its existence except for the military and defense. There is no sporting purpose in my book for it.


!!!WOW!!!...(LOL)...Your book must be tiny...:D
 
I don't have a 28, though I do have a 16. 28 makes no sense to me except in a scaled gun. Too many 28s are less agile than their 20 gauge counterparts. So the only ones I want start a bit up there in price.

Armed Bear, both the CZ and Stevens 28s are "scaled" smaller than their 20 gauges.
Ever hunt Valley Quail? Wouldn't want to use a goose gun for quail, or a quail gun for goose, any more than I'd want to putt with a driver or drive with a putter.

Well said!
 
I suppose I am an extremist in this viewpoint but I was raised with 20 gauges for hunting literally everything.
 
Hey, this thread is getting off-topic. My original post wasn't intended to criticize anyone's gauge preference - to each his own and more power to ya.

The question was whether the .410 and 28 gauge would survive as viable hunting guns in a world without lead shot.
 
Absolutely.

With mainstream market demand for heavier-than-lead shot for purposes other than waterfowl, I'd predict the further growth of the 28. People used to use it for duck. With heavier-than-lead shot becoming more prolific, they could do so again.

Right now, the thrust of heavier-than-lead marketing is at the guy who thinks he needs even more in his 3.5" 12 Gauge. If that shifts, 28 Gauge duck loads could be back on shelves.
 
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Right now, the marketing thrust of heavier-than-lead marketing is at the guy who thinks he needs even more in his 3.5" 12 Gauge. If that shifts, 28 Gauge duck loads could be back on shelves.

I would love to see that happen. I've always wanted to take a limit of Teal with mine, ever since seeing Bing Crosby and Phil Harris do it on American Sportsman as a kid. And yes, I think the small gauges will survive even if lead is outlawed. The true purists won't let them die.
 
Some thoughts...

I was born in the last great decade, the 50's. Take into consideration this time in history if you will, as to what had occurred, and what would occur.

Before JFK was shot in '63, before the GCA of '68, a real concern was - gun control. Again, look at history, and the restrictions around the world.

Mentors were concerned if the US ever had "restrictions" that denied anyone to have "guns, calibers and gauges, the Police & Military use".
Some countries do have this restriction and have for a long long time.
i.e. the populace cannot have 9mm, so they do .380 or 32ACP.

12 gauge is used by Police & Military, world over. So what does that leave J.Q.Public?

Now even before non-tox became a concern for Migratory Waterfowl, the concern was an alternate material for projectiles to replace lead.

I am dead serious when I share a lot of the Veterans of previous Wars, used .410 and 28 ga guns, in the locales I was raised in, and frequented.
Injuries, and add age. Just toting a gun was difficult for some, especially when there was more toting than shooting to be done.

The 28 ga is .550, which is not far from being .54 caliber, which has a historically proven record for felling two legged and four legged critters.
I have mentioned the 28 ga slug numerous times before. Yes, it exists today, as it did in yesteryear, and yes it will still fell a deer today and it did in yesteryear.


Ducks- Many prime hunting areas "restricted" one to using 28 ga or smaller shotguns. Bing Crosby is one such famous Actor and Performer, whom restricted his friends, on his hunting property to to 28 ga or smaller.

Take a look at some of the gun control , or restrictions that are on the books.
Pay attention to definitions, as some of these are "open" to being interpretated according to the whims of Tyranny.

Words such as "repeating", and "capacity" for instance. If...If the USA ever chooses to "push it" if you will, just interpretation what is already written could work against J.Q. Public.

Police and Military use 12 ga, with short barrels, and magazine extensions.
Some are pump, some are semi autos.

This is why I and others have insisted folks not only have Software first, they also include having some bone stock "hardware".

I have nothing against black, synthetic stocked shotguns with mag extensions and side saddles. I do have a problem with folks believing they can buy such guns and magically evil will not bother them, and if evil should choose to, these guns would magically handle the situation.

I do want choke in a shotgun barrel, for even a Cyl bore has a point or two of choke.

Ireland if memory serves, restricts J.Q. Public to a shotgun barrel no shorter than 24".

So instead of whacking off a really fine barrel, with fixed choke, that really is a better barrel being made today, and patterns so well and ending up with a shotgun that will not pattern worth a flip...
One would be wise to find a shorter barrel that would fit that gun.

It would be better to have to turn in a good used short barrel, than a shotgun, or end up with a shotgun with no barrel and having a devil of a time finding a longer barrel to fit it.

Take a look at the gun control and restrictions other countries have. The same playbook, with reasons are being used in the USA.
Current knife laws imposed here in the USA, are being imposed using the same thinking, reasoning and marketing used by other other countries that imposed such laws.

So, what if the USA says you can still shoot 3 gun, but the gun has to be locked up at the range, or local "police" station as some countries do. What if one is required to get a special permit to have such a gun, and part of the requirements is , you must participate in so many shooting events a year?

What if the USA says the local police will have to approve you and your setting to make sure you have an approved locking container, and the shotgun and ammo have to be separated, in different , approved, locking containers?
One will have two required inspections, and one may be subject to random inspection?

One can get a single shot, or double shotgun loaded up faster if serious should come to visit.
Especially if the tactical 3 gun is locked at a range or police station.

Mentors shared having hulls, wads, shot, powder and primer, especially primers, when putting back reloading supplies.

Bismuth...was something back then and applies to today in looking at a viable alternative to lead.

Smaller gauges use less "projectiles" which includes less weight for slugs.
How would one make their own bismuth pellets, or slugs?
One half ounce payload for a 410 bore, and three quarters of an ounce of payload for a 28 bore takes less pellets, than the payload for a 20 or 12 bore.

That might be a good questions to investigate and verify, along with sticking back reloading supplies, instead of trying to keep up with TEEM SEEL, and IAMBAD SWAT.

20 bore is a fine bore.
Some years ago I was in a large chain of sporting good/outdoor store, and had already bought all the Brenneke 12 ga, 2 3/4" they had. I had them order some more by the case.

I had already bought all the 20 ga 2 3/4" five packs of these Brennke's as well
I asked if they would call me when they got another order of the 20 bore, in, and asked if I could add buying 500 more.

I and mine were willing to pay up front. The person said, 250 total would be more acceptable, simply because they were going to change distributors, as the prices were better, so this was going to be the last order from that source.
I said fine, as I understand business and all.

The person called, and right off apologized, because I was only going to get 10 , five packs, of the 20 bore Brenneke's.
An Air Force Base had ordered 500 20 bore Brenneke, along with a slew of #3 Buckshot.
Due to training I was told , they needed the 250 I had ordered.

I was nice, said I understood and we worked out the money end, as I and mine had paid up front.
My gut felt real uneasy, about this. One of the gals in this buy asked me why I felt funny.
Simple, if the restrictions ever say J.Q. Public cannot have what the Military use[d] then there goes the 20 ga as well.

There was a reason Mentors not only hoarded certain firearms, calibers, gauges and such.

I know some members here using .410 and 28 ga for a lot of their hunting, including deer with slugs from a 28 bore.

I personally have felled a slew of ducks with 28 ga, along with doves, quail and other small game.
Yes, I have taken deer with 28 ga slugs, and used those slugs for property and pest control.
Yes, a load of #5 hard shot, will fell a turkey as well.

Just some software thoughts, from my life and experiences.
 
Personally, while I am a 410 enthusiast, I don't believe they will be going away anytime soon. We may be forced to pay a little more for the rounds but as long as the market is there, the industry will provide the product, cost might go up some. I already use a magnum handgun powder to reload my shells and believe that with a little work could reload an acceptable nonlead round at a reasonable cost per shell.

Funny thing is most Americans don't realize that there are many, many other small gauge/bore shotguns in the world. Most Americans thinkthere are only the 12, 16, 20, 28 and 410's in shotguns. they should do a little reasearch and see just how many other gauges actually exist. There are a large number of smaller gauges out there and the way things are going they will also need an alternative to lead. At some point this will all be worked out until then the birds will keep falling with the aid of my 410's and lead shot.
 
Nobody else is really using the 28 or .410 now, though.

When I go dove hunting I'm the odd man out with a 20. Everyone else has some lunker 12.

I don't have a 28, though I do have a 16. 28 makes no sense to me except in a scaled gun. Too many 28s are less agile than their 20 gauge counterparts. So the only ones I want start a bit up there in price.
Be a big old hillbilly plumber, I'm about as far from an elitist as you can get :D
I have something in every American gauge gun made except for 16. I hunt with a single shot 28ga 80% of the time 410 covers about 19% of the other 20% By the end of the year I should have a ton of lead. I am sure I can make some thing to fab some shot If I have to :D I don't shoot enough hunting loads to give up for a few dollars more to hunt with my favorite gun
By the way the last one percent left is reserved for the times a stray cat can't take the hint he is not welcome. Then the singleshot Ten and a remington 2 1/4 oz #4 lead load comes out:fire:
Roy
 
I personally find that while 12 gauge is great for geese, I prefer a 20 or 28 gauge for quail & doves. The 12 gauge, 16 gauge, and sometimes even the 20 gauge just tear the birds up too bad-why shoot it if you can't eat it?
I wish 16 gauge shotguns were easier to find...
 
I prefer a 20 or 28 gauge for quail & doves. The 12 gauge, 16 gauge, and sometimes even the 20 gauge just tear the birds up too bad-why shoot it if you can't eat it?

So how big a difference is there between the 1 oz or 7/8 oz load in a 12 gauge and a 3/4 oz or 1 oz load in the 28 or 20 ?
 
For all the 28 fans

Here’s an article that sings the praises of the 28 gauge.

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/Fueling-Your-Passion-for-the-28-Gauge-Page1.htm

With more and more public and private upland hunting land coming under non-toxic shot requirements, it's important to note that Bismuth Cartridge Company offers a 28 gauge 3/4 ounce @ 1250 FPS load in Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7-1/2 bismuth shot, which is as close as you can get to lead-like performance. Dan Flaherty of the Bismuth shop says his favorite load for quail is their No. 7-1/2 size shot.
 
Be a big old hillbilly plumber, I'm about as far from an elitist as you can get

I'd believe that if I'd never hired a plumber. Apart from electricians, y'all have the resources to be elitists if you want.:D
 
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