Are the smallest gauges doomed?
- Thread starter Bud Tugly
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1858rem
Member
i think i saw a 6lb bag of "hevishot" for 160 dollars in cabellas magazine lol
chas08
Member
Well there you have it...Light enough for Mountain Quail....Tight enough for Turkey.
huntsman
Member
or maybe it was the 16 got dumped and the 12 got kept. if the smaller payloads were what folks wanted then why did the 16 go from 2-9/16 to 2-3/4" and the 12 went from 2-5/8 to 2-3/4" ? and why invent the 20 gauge 3" mag ?
huntsman
Member
There appears to be a small savings with smaller gauges with heavy shot if you can handle paying over $2.00 per cartridge.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=363
That didn't happen when it was the norm for a dedicated hunter to own one shotgun.
Smokeless powder. My 16 Gauge Nitro Special was a relatively early smokeless shotgun, and it has a 2 3/4" chamber -- earlier than most.
A rhetorical question. Why, indeed?
When was the last time anyone here shot a 3" 20 Gauge round?
Yes, some people want bigger payloads. The less they know about shotguns, the bigger payload they want, or so it seems (not counting special applications like large waterfowl, of course).
Hence, the 28 and .410 will be the stuff of the "elite few." But subgauges are not doomed.
The change over time, I think, is similar to what we see in rifles. Once, a beginner to hunting would get a .30-30 or something, and maybe move up to a "bigger" round after a while. Now, it seems that all the posts we see asking about a "first hunting rifle" are along the lines of "should it be a .338 Win Mag, or something more powerful?" Later on, the guy ends up buying a .30-30, .243, 6.5 Swede, etc.
I'm sure you've seen the threads here, with someone fretting about his first 12 Gauge not chambering 3.5" shells. Some years down the line, he'll be drooling over 28 Gauge doubles, though...
chas08
Member
I think what caused the 16 to fall in popularity was that more people became able to afford, and shoot, more than one gun. And the difference in characteristics between the 12 and the 20 simply eclipsed the 16.
chas08
Member
When I was Ten, My uncle slipped one in my H&R single shot.
Thanks for the above consideration AB. Very little selection is offered in the non-toxic/steel catagory for the 20 ga that is not 3 inch.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Actually I think there was a huge stockpile of 12 gauge stuff made, and ready to be assembled after WWII, and the ammo makers simply flooded the market with inexpensive stuff. 16 dwindled slowly over time from '45 on, but the 12 came on strong after that.
Low demand, as I mentioned, if demand went up and they produced more of it, the cost per shell would drop, and the overall costs would drop to us consumers.
When I shot ducks with them. Otherwise, very unnecessary (imho).
LD
earlthegoat2
Member
The first brand new gun I bought new was a Benelli Nova 12er because it could cycle 2 3/4, 3, and 3 1/2 inch shells. I figured I was maximizing versatility.
I sold it to buy a used 20 ga with 2 3/4 only chambers. That was how I maximized practicality.
plumberroy
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Must be different from around here
took me 5 months to find some place that wanted to pay me more than what I was making on unemployment :banghead: you are missing the hillbilly part I came home yesterday and tilled my garden You can take the boy out of the hills, but you can't get the hills out of the boy. you'd have a better chance of turning lead to gold than turning me into an elitist LOLcontents of my den closet as we speak
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Roy
MCgunner
Member
So, um, why is about all the sporting ammo on the shelves 12 gauge now days? ROFLMAO. THAT is about the most ASININE statement I've ever read on this board! WOWSERS! ROFLMAO!
I have 3 12s, a 20, a 16, and a 10 gauge. They're all now, or have been in the past, used for sporting purposes. I've never been in a militia, let alone the military. I'm a duck, goose, and dove hunter and I'll hunt about anything else with feathers given the opportunity.
I like my little light weight 20 for dove and it would be awesome on quail. I can't really see how a 28 or a .410 could be better, tell ya the truth. I don't think the thing weighs much over 5 lobs, a 20" Spartan coach gun. It is VERY quick. I'll take the 12s every time, though, with steel shot on ducks and geese and the 10 gauge is proving the better performer on geese. My 12s are no bigger than 3" chambered guns, don't have a 3.5" 12.
earlthegoat2
Member
At least I finally got a rise out of someone with that post.
For me, the 12 ga is useless. I do currently own one and it is a trench gun.
I have converted to 20 ga as my workhorse with the occasional 28 or 410 every so often.
I like the 20 over the 12 for a number of reasons. None of which will probably matter to the average shotgun enthusiast. I understand the 12s dominance in waterfowl and turkey hunting. I can still kill turkeys and ducks just as dead with my 2 3/4 in 20 with steel shot. I am frustratingly aware that there is more 12 ammo in one store than there there is 20 ammo in all the other stores combined.
If you want my opinion on why the 12 remains dominant then be prepared for a lot of drivel you are not going to agree with anyway.
I guess I will address the questions first.
Simple, there are more 12 gauges out there. It is the first gauge most people buy for the one shotgun household. It is what the beginner will think of as the best for what they intend to use it for. Rightfully so because the 12 quite literally can do it all. It is overkill at times but it gets the job done and that is all that is asked. Somewhere along the lines it was marketed correctly and they outsold subgauges 10:1.
Ive had some 12s in the past and used them a lot. Enter reloading. That is where the 12 became impractical for me. I found myself downloading it to find the right balance between recoil and pattern. I patterned 1 1/8oz down to 7/8 oz without any significant differences at the ranges I typically take game. I started using 3/4 oz loads which is less than the standard 20ga load. See ya 12 gauges.
Started experimenting with 20s and different loadings and found the 3/4-7/8 oz loads worked great. Low recoil, good patterns.
There is a bias here and it is a big one I would say. I do not do much goose hunting. I do plenty of turkey and duck though. I never have a problem bagging a turkey with a 2 3/4 inch 1oz load of #6. For the geese I will generally bust out the 3" shells.
With clays I routinely loads up some 3/4oz loads at 1200 and it fills the bill nicely. The 12 works just as well for me on the clay fields with added noise and recoil which I decided to depart from.
The average 20 ga when built properly handles superior to any 12 I have touched. They are almost always lighter to carry. When handloading you get more shots per dollar of money spent on lead and powder because you dont use as much per shot. I grew up using a 20 ga single and that was all I was ever allowed to use until I could afford my own.
It is true the diminished case capacity can have a dramatic effect when buckshot enters the equation. But if the shooter does his or her part I believe they will be just as effective. And that is where we reach the conclusion. If the shooter does his or her part it really doesnt matter what gauge of shotgun you use. When one refuses to use a 12 and instead uses a 20 there is less lead being put into the air. All the lead is going to the same spot though.
A 20 can kill them just as dead as a 12, you might just have to be a little bit better of a shot. You might have to wait a little bit longer for that shot. You have to know your own as well as your firearms limitations.
For me, the 12 ga is useless. I do currently own one and it is a trench gun.
I have converted to 20 ga as my workhorse with the occasional 28 or 410 every so often.
I like the 20 over the 12 for a number of reasons. None of which will probably matter to the average shotgun enthusiast. I understand the 12s dominance in waterfowl and turkey hunting. I can still kill turkeys and ducks just as dead with my 2 3/4 in 20 with steel shot. I am frustratingly aware that there is more 12 ammo in one store than there there is 20 ammo in all the other stores combined.
If you want my opinion on why the 12 remains dominant then be prepared for a lot of drivel you are not going to agree with anyway.
I guess I will address the questions first.
Simple, there are more 12 gauges out there. It is the first gauge most people buy for the one shotgun household. It is what the beginner will think of as the best for what they intend to use it for. Rightfully so because the 12 quite literally can do it all. It is overkill at times but it gets the job done and that is all that is asked. Somewhere along the lines it was marketed correctly and they outsold subgauges 10:1.
Ive had some 12s in the past and used them a lot. Enter reloading. That is where the 12 became impractical for me. I found myself downloading it to find the right balance between recoil and pattern. I patterned 1 1/8oz down to 7/8 oz without any significant differences at the ranges I typically take game. I started using 3/4 oz loads which is less than the standard 20ga load. See ya 12 gauges.
Started experimenting with 20s and different loadings and found the 3/4-7/8 oz loads worked great. Low recoil, good patterns.
There is a bias here and it is a big one I would say. I do not do much goose hunting. I do plenty of turkey and duck though. I never have a problem bagging a turkey with a 2 3/4 inch 1oz load of #6. For the geese I will generally bust out the 3" shells.
With clays I routinely loads up some 3/4oz loads at 1200 and it fills the bill nicely. The 12 works just as well for me on the clay fields with added noise and recoil which I decided to depart from.
The average 20 ga when built properly handles superior to any 12 I have touched. They are almost always lighter to carry. When handloading you get more shots per dollar of money spent on lead and powder because you dont use as much per shot. I grew up using a 20 ga single and that was all I was ever allowed to use until I could afford my own.
It is true the diminished case capacity can have a dramatic effect when buckshot enters the equation. But if the shooter does his or her part I believe they will be just as effective. And that is where we reach the conclusion. If the shooter does his or her part it really doesnt matter what gauge of shotgun you use. When one refuses to use a 12 and instead uses a 20 there is less lead being put into the air. All the lead is going to the same spot though.
A 20 can kill them just as dead as a 12, you might just have to be a little bit better of a shot. You might have to wait a little bit longer for that shot. You have to know your own as well as your firearms limitations.
MCgunner
Member
I've killed more dove, ducks, and geese with the 12 gauge than anything else. It'll work fine for anything out there. I've killed a lot of ducks with the 20 back when lead was legal, 2 3/4" number fives being my favorite load. But, there is no denying the 12 gauge is a much better waterfowl gun, especially with the advent of steel shot. And, there's still a spot for the superior payload and pattern of big steel from the 10 gauge in goose hunting.
I sold my 20 gauge when I was in college after I bought a nice 6.5 lbs 12 gauge SxS. Yeah, with 3" BBs on geese, that gun kicked, but I handled it. It took a lot of doves, too. I bought another 20 several years ago, an even lighter, quicker SxS. But, I can still do damage on the dove population with my 12 gauge Winchester autoloader. It's a gas gun and with 1 ounce dove loads, it kicks about like a 7/8 ounce 20 in a lighter gun. It's fairly quick to the shoulder, too, but doen't change direction as quick as the little 20. All that is nuance way I look at it. I can get it done with the 12. If I hunted much quail, I'd do it with the 20, I think, but I don't. I'm a waterfowler/dove hunter.
12 gauge just plain works, that's why I have 3 of 'em. But, I've rediscovered the pleasures of the 20 gauge on doves these last few years. Ain't takin' it goose hunting, though. I have shot teal with it, 3" steel 4s. It works, but 2 3/4" 12s work better.
My old 16 is retired. There's no steel shot for it and hard to get ANYthing for it, really. Mine's got a 30" full choke barrel, was a great goose gun back in the day, but not much worth anything else. Why should I buy a 16 when the 12 is better? I liked the 16, but really, I have it covered with 12s and a 20 way I look at it. I don't dislike the 16, just don't see the need and the ammo obstacles are a little much.
I don't think the .410 and 28 are "doomed". Heck, the 28 has always been an oddball. The .410 was my first, took my first dove with it. I think it makes a good kid's first regardless of the thin patterns. By golly, if you learn to hit with it, a 20 gauge us budda. ROFL! No, the 10 hasn't died, the 28 has always lived in obscurity, the .410 won't die, either. The 12 and the 20 will continue to rule the day. 16? Well, I don't know about the 16. I ain't counting it out, though. It's STILL more popular than the 28. 32 gauge, that one's gone.
I sold my 20 gauge when I was in college after I bought a nice 6.5 lbs 12 gauge SxS. Yeah, with 3" BBs on geese, that gun kicked, but I handled it. It took a lot of doves, too. I bought another 20 several years ago, an even lighter, quicker SxS. But, I can still do damage on the dove population with my 12 gauge Winchester autoloader. It's a gas gun and with 1 ounce dove loads, it kicks about like a 7/8 ounce 20 in a lighter gun. It's fairly quick to the shoulder, too, but doen't change direction as quick as the little 20. All that is nuance way I look at it. I can get it done with the 12. If I hunted much quail, I'd do it with the 20, I think, but I don't. I'm a waterfowler/dove hunter.
12 gauge just plain works, that's why I have 3 of 'em. But, I've rediscovered the pleasures of the 20 gauge on doves these last few years. Ain't takin' it goose hunting, though.
I have shot teal with it, 3" steel 4s. It works, but 2 3/4" 12s work better.My old 16 is retired. There's no steel shot for it and hard to get ANYthing for it, really. Mine's got a 30" full choke barrel, was a great goose gun back in the day, but not much worth anything else. Why should I buy a 16 when the 12 is better? I liked the 16, but really, I have it covered with 12s and a 20 way I look at it. I don't dislike the 16, just don't see the need and the ammo obstacles are a little much.
I don't think the .410 and 28 are "doomed". Heck, the 28 has always been an oddball. The .410 was my first, took my first dove with it. I think it makes a good kid's first regardless of the thin patterns. By golly, if you learn to hit with it, a 20 gauge us budda. ROFL! No, the 10 hasn't died, the 28 has always lived in obscurity, the .410 won't die, either. The 12 and the 20 will continue to rule the day. 16? Well, I don't know about the 16. I ain't counting it out, though. It's STILL more popular than the 28. 32 gauge, that one's gone.
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JohnBT
Member
16 ga. steel www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=73734
Won't help with that full choke though. Heck, shoot a box of steel, it might loosen it up a tad.
Maybe the reason the shelves are full of 12 ga. shells is similar to why the Chevy dealers' lots are overflowing with Chevys, they made too many and nobody wants 'em.
Yes, I do have a bunch of 12 ga. guns, but I love my 28 and .410.
John
Won't help with that full choke though. Heck, shoot a box of steel, it might loosen it up a tad.
Maybe the reason the shelves are full of 12 ga. shells is similar to why the Chevy dealers' lots are overflowing with Chevys, they made too many and nobody wants 'em.
Yes, I do have a bunch of 12 ga. guns, but I love my 28 and .410.
John
MCgunner
Member
I've thought about putting a polychoke on that 16 to make it useful for SOMEthing, but every time I think about it, I question "why". Heck, I'd rather shoot my 20. LOL I would buy another 16 if I found a deal on an Ithaca 37 featherweight, though. I used to borrow my uncle's, loved that thing.
JohnBT
Member
"Hence, the 28 and .410 will be the stuff of the "elite few." "
Elite? Me? I'm about as worn as this stuff. More worn. The gimbaled Hay & Co. compass in the box still works though. So does my grandfather's horn.
I need to drag out some more of the family gun stuff and take pics. Meanwhile, back to working on my parents' taxes. Yuck.
John
Elite? Me? I'm about as worn as this stuff. More worn. The gimbaled Hay & Co. compass in the box still works though. So does my grandfather's horn.
I need to drag out some more of the family gun stuff and take pics. Meanwhile, back to working on my parents' taxes. Yuck.
John
6-gunfun
Member
you know i could go both ways on this on one hand my simple 20ga remington 870 is my deer,turky duck goose and some times rabbit gun but i still love my old .410 single shot for fast bunnys in thick brush but now i can hardly afford to shoot it 17.99 for a box of 7 1/2 shot at gander mountain and that was lead
All I have and want to have is 12 gauge. Then again I don't hunt and all my shotguns (2 of them, haha) are for defense or emergency hunting (SHTF) or for fun. Currently I use them for fun only, as I have yet to be attacked/involved in a massive breakdown of society.
Virginian
Member
We need a 16 gauge crying towel board.
The price of shells has never been dictated by the price of components, but only by what the market would bear.
The price of shells has never been dictated by the price of components, but only by what the market would bear.
WardenWolf
member
What's ultimately going to kill the smaller gauges is this:
(1) Usability
(2) Availability
(3) Advances in recoil management
(4) Advances in lighter weight components
Today's shotguns hit harder and recoil less painfully than their predecessors, in part due to improved recoil pads and advanced semi-automatic actions, and also due to improved powder charges. They're also lighter due to quality synthetic materials and advances in metallurgy. There's just no need for so many gauges nowadays.
The .410 was created to be a lightweight shotgun to hunt upland game birds. Effectively, it was intended to be a lighter weight gun for carrying over rough terrain. The original purpose is long gone, however, as modern metallurgy allows less material to be used, and modern 12 and 20 gauges are lighter than the older .410's. The .410 is also effectively useless as a slug gun; a .410 slug has less stopping power than a .45 Long Colt fired out of a revolver. Modern semi 12's also typically have comparable or even lesser recoil. Effectively, it's now only useful as a handicap gun, for hunters looking for a challenge.
This, of course, leaves the other smaller calibers, below 20 gauge, at an even bigger disadvantage. It also leaves the intermediate 16 and 18 gauges as a caliber searching for a purpose. At this point, the market has pretty much settled in on 3 shotgun sizes: 12 gauge, 20 gauge, and .410. Support for other sizes is still there, but dwindling rapidly. The advantages to the larger gauges: more penetration, more range, and more pellets in the air, just make the smaller sizes less practical.
(1) Usability
(2) Availability
(3) Advances in recoil management
(4) Advances in lighter weight components
Today's shotguns hit harder and recoil less painfully than their predecessors, in part due to improved recoil pads and advanced semi-automatic actions, and also due to improved powder charges. They're also lighter due to quality synthetic materials and advances in metallurgy. There's just no need for so many gauges nowadays.
The .410 was created to be a lightweight shotgun to hunt upland game birds. Effectively, it was intended to be a lighter weight gun for carrying over rough terrain. The original purpose is long gone, however, as modern metallurgy allows less material to be used, and modern 12 and 20 gauges are lighter than the older .410's. The .410 is also effectively useless as a slug gun; a .410 slug has less stopping power than a .45 Long Colt fired out of a revolver. Modern semi 12's also typically have comparable or even lesser recoil. Effectively, it's now only useful as a handicap gun, for hunters looking for a challenge.
This, of course, leaves the other smaller calibers, below 20 gauge, at an even bigger disadvantage. It also leaves the intermediate 16 and 18 gauges as a caliber searching for a purpose. At this point, the market has pretty much settled in on 3 shotgun sizes: 12 gauge, 20 gauge, and .410. Support for other sizes is still there, but dwindling rapidly. The advantages to the larger gauges: more penetration, more range, and more pellets in the air, just make the smaller sizes less practical.
JohnBT
Member
I think I read those same arguments in 5 different gun magazines in the 60s. And then there was the time that the 3" 20 was going to kill off the 12.
That reminds me, anybody see this article a couple of years ago?
"Article date:October 1, 2007
From Hastings Ammunition
Hastings announces a new 20-gauge, 3 1/2", 2,000 fps, plus Laser Accurate Slug round to their collection of matched (to Hastings barrels) ammunition. This new gauge slug cartridge offers true 12-gauge Magnum plus performance in the compact proportions of a 20-gauge slug round. It drives a 60-grain impact-discarding sabot with 350 grains of soft lead to a full ... "
I bet that hurts out of light single barrel gun.
And anyway, there will always be a market for the smaller guage ammo. You don't think all of these small bore guns are just going to evaporate when the owners grow old and die.
John
That reminds me, anybody see this article a couple of years ago?
"Article date:October 1, 2007
From Hastings Ammunition
Hastings announces a new 20-gauge, 3 1/2", 2,000 fps, plus Laser Accurate Slug round to their collection of matched (to Hastings barrels) ammunition. This new gauge slug cartridge offers true 12-gauge Magnum plus performance in the compact proportions of a 20-gauge slug round. It drives a 60-grain impact-discarding sabot with 350 grains of soft lead to a full ... "
I bet that hurts out of light single barrel gun.
And anyway, there will always be a market for the smaller guage ammo. You don't think all of these small bore guns are just going to evaporate when the owners grow old and die.
John
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