Are the smallest gauges doomed?

[ArmedBear]

So how big a difference is there between the 1 oz or 7/8 oz load in a 12 gauge and a 3/4 oz or 1 oz load in the 28 or 20 ?

LOL

People seem to be unable to think clearly when they think shotguns, though, huntsman.

The reason to use a 20 or smaller for quail is because the gun is faster to shoulder and point-shoot, but many people don't seem to understand the relationship between gun handling and gun purpose. (This is also why I use a 26" 20 Gauge O/U, not a 28 -- until you get up in price, 28s are heavier and slower than 20s, barring the Turkish guns mentioned, and I have no interest in Turkish break-actions, no pun intended.)

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

Skeet might be the biggest thing keeping 410 and 28ga afloat. I have stopped shooting 12ga in skeet, it's too much of an overkill. Heck, even 20 seems a bit much. 28ga is perfection, and 410 is challenging but the tiny amount of recoil makes it a hoot. As far as hunting, they might not be super popular, but I'd prefer a 28 for quail, dove or chukar over a 12. I think the ultimate thing that would kill either one is the outrageous cost of factory ammo, there's no way I could shoot it if I didn't reload.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think skeet is the only thing keeping the sales of new 12 bores high. Sure a 12 is good for duck and geese and turkey but those have turned into specialized guns for that purpose. When it comes to pure hunting of upland a 12 gauge is IMO obsolete.

 

[atomd]

I think skeet is the only thing keeping the sales of new 12 bores high. Sure a 12 is good for duck and geese and turkey but those have turned into specialized guns for that purpose. When it comes to pure hunting of upland a 12 gauge is IMO obsolete.

I think you got it backwards here. Skeet is keeping sales of 12 bores high? Skeet is one of the only things that you mentioned that has a decent % of non-12 bore guns. To begin with, most shotguns are sold for hunting, not clay sports. Most shotguns sold are 12s period. With one 12 gauge you can use it for all those purposes and more. A .410 is only good for some of those uses you mentioned. I'd say the .410 and the 28 is certainly more specialized and limited than the 12.

If there's one all-arounder it's easily the 12...followed by the 20. While they might sell specialized turkey hunting variations all the way to short barreled home defense versions, one 12 gauge with a ~28" or so barrel can do pretty much anything that any other shotgun can do. It might not be the very best for every job but there's no way it's any less versatile than a .410 or a 28. It's by far the largest seller for a reason. Not that there's anything wrong with a 16, 20, 28, .410, etc, but the 12 is FAR from obsolete in every use out there.

For me though, I'll take a few of each.

 

[ArmedBear]

12s are either clunkers that don't work for fast upland birds, or they're real lightweights that are no good for clays or waterfowl.

(Turkey is a whole other ball of wax.)

There's no such thing as a "do-everything" shotgun, any more than there's a "do-everything" rifle that works great for cottontails, bison and match target shooting. Rifle shooters would laugh at the notion.

You can maybe get down to two shotguns, and still get acceptable performance in many situations. Not one, though, at least if, like I said, you hunt Valley Quail.

 

[RetiredLawman]

I have a couple of safes full of guns of various pedigrees and gauges. My favorite that has taken pertnear every game animal in my area, is my Franchi 48 20 gauge. With slugs, it will drop a deer a fair distance. With small shot it will do it's job on the rest of them. The only thing I wouldn't want to use it for is geese. Since I don't hunt geese, I'm good to go.

There are lots of turkeys and deer on my farm. That 20 gauge will tend to business. It is light enough to tote all day and I don't feel as much recoil as I do with a 12 gauge. That 20 gauge is sleek and sexy. It weighs 5 lbs, 8 oz. It handles like a dream.

I won't completely quit using 12 gauges but my favorite is the 20 gauge. I forgot the last time I used a 12 but I think it was when dog running deer and I needed buckshot for them as they leave the bush wide open.

 

[atomd]

There's no such thing as a "do-everything" shotgun, any more than there's a "do-everything" rifle that works great for cottontails, bison and match target shooting. Rifle shooters would laugh at the notion.

Very true. I wasn't saying they are the best for every task. If you could only have one, you could simply do more with it if you chose to. There are only a few applications that I would consider them to be the best at. Many people out there only have one. They might be missing out on some of the benefits of the other selections out there but that's the way it goes.

 

[chas08]

Many people out there only have one.

That was especialy true in my Dads and Grandads eras. They viewed a shotgun as more of a tool than a toy. In their mind there wasn't any reason to own more than one. Not to mention they couldn't afford it. We are very fortunate indeed to have the luxury of choice. For me it makes the shooting sports more fun and interesting. But if I had to limit myself to only one shotgun it would be a 12.

 

[huntsman]

That was especialy true in my Dads and Grandads eras. They viewed a shotgun as more of a tool than a toy. In their mind there wasn't any reason to own more than one. Not to mention they couldn't afford it.

those times are coming back around and the 12 will shine again.

 

[JohnBT]

I've never thought the 12 to be necessary for anything but high flying waterfowl. Useful, yes. Necessary, no.

My father only had one shotgun, a Model 12 20 ga. that he bought after returning from WWII. It did everything for him including take 2 turkeys on the wing one day with #6 shot. He sure could pump that thing fast - two shots, two turkeys. My uncle saw him do it. Somehow he got them before they dodged into the apple orchard and disappeared. He was hard on the quail and rabbit population, too.

My grandfather had one shotgun, a Stevens 12 ga. hammer gun. My uncle started with a 12 ga. Wingmaster and then added a first year A-5 12 ga. Magnum and a .410 bolt and bunch of others to go with his rifle collection.

I say my uncle started with a Wingmaster, but that's not totally true. That was his first new gun. He started just before WWII with my dad's old SxS, a 16 ga. Essex - one of those Crescent hardware guns.

My father finally bought another shotgun in his 80s, a 28 ga. O/U and his brother gave him a Win Mod 37 .410 from his Mod 37 collection.

John

 

[ArmedBear]

That was especialy true in my Dads and Grandads eras. They viewed a shotgun as more of a tool than a toy. In their mind there wasn't any reason to own more than one.

Note that 12 Gauge wasn't as popular then, either. There's a reason for the ancient 16 Gauge guns that populate used racks: 16 Gauge had a much bigger market share back then.

I have an old 16 Gauge SxS and it's quick enough for fast birds, but can throw enough shot for big ones (at least when you could use lead for everything, it did).

Nowadays, you can easily find a 12 that's light and quick, but you wouldn't want to shoot goose loads in it.

 

[shoey]

I like small gauge guns, but would take a 12 over any other if I could only have one. As a matter of fact, at this moment I have 3 12's and nothing smaller. Just the way it worked out. I'd like a 20 for small gamebut havent found the gun and funds at the same time yet.

That said, the Stoeger 12 gauge m-2000 I have is every bit as light as the Baikal o/u 20 gauge I used to have. And the Remington Model 11 12 gauge that I have handles very quick for me. And I shoot my Mossberg 835 better than any other gun I do or have owned, because it fits me and was my first gun.

So while I like small gauges and dont see them going anywhere anytime soon, I'll be the first to argue that a 12 gauge that fits you right will do everything you need a shotgun for.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I am amazed at how many people seem to enjoy missing birds with their too-slow 12 Gauges

Do ya really think it's the size and weight of the gun that's the only thing that makes these sorta folks miss?

I like 16, as well as 20, and have very nice adapters to shoot 20 in either of my 16's. Twenty hammers upland birds, and I prefer it on quails and doves as I like to eat 'em too!

ACTUALLY the the cost of stuff like bismuth should make the smaller gauges MORE popular. Should be less $$ for a box of 10 shells with 5/8 oz in 28 gauge or a 1/2 ounce in a .410 than 10 rounds of 1.25 ounce in 12 no? (OK so they will have to manufacture larger amounts of the smaller stuff to bring unit costs down, but is the "theory" sound?)

LD

 

[ArmedBear]

I know a guy who used to prospect for tungsten, owns a couple of machine shops, and has tinkered with damn near everything mechanical or firearms-related -- and is a really good shot, too, with lots of competition trophies and several freezers to prove it.

He looked into producing bismuth shot as a business. He said the metal is readily available, but it doesn't form into nice round balls when you drop it in a tower. It does work fine in lead-shot barrels, though.

As you said, large-scale production could solve that problem. The startup cost of a facility to mold large quantities of tiny bismuth balls is prohibitive for a small niche market. A mainstream market for bismuth shot could really help.

 

[JohnBT]

www.tungstensupershot.com

Expensive, but outrageous performance. TSS #7 outperforms Steel BB on ducks and geese. The site has all sorts of info.

"We believe that our 12ga. Magnum Waterfowl is the "World's Champion long range Performer." At 70 yards, our shot stringing and pattern testing show Pellet counts 50% higher than those reccommended as the minimum for effective pattern density. This performance is delivered with a recoil level 50% or more LOWER than any other shotload that "attempts" to compete. Even size 7 shot retains adequate pattern density and energy to kill BIG geese cleanly to 50 yards. If you've been looking for just one load to handle most all your shooting, #7 TSS is the perfect combo load for both ducks and geese."

Bring money. Big money.

John

 

[ArmedBear]

Does tungsten require steel-rated barrels/chokes?

 

[chas08]

Note that 12 Gauge wasn't as popular then, either. There's a reason for the ancient 16 Gauge guns that populate used racks: 16 Gauge had a much bigger market share back then

Very true, My Grandads gun of choice was a 16 ga Model 12 with a 28" Modified choke barrel. You also had a larger selection of shot sizes in 16 back then. My Dad chose the Model 12 also in a 28" modified choke, but in 12 ga.
I now own both.

 

[JohnBT]

Well, it says that they use steel-rated barrels.

FAQs cover a bunch of things www.tungstensupershot.com/pages/faq.asp

"We shoot Tungsten Super Shot only through mass produced guns which have replacable barrels, designed for steel shot.

These statements imply no warranty, only the facts of our testing to date. Tungsten Super Shot is harder than gunbarrels and a shotgun blast is a controlled explosion."

You don't need any choke and you're using #5 and #7, not BB, etc.

"Waterfowl hunters shooting at normal ranges out to 50 yards, are best off with a cylinder tube or skeet constriction at the most."

"We use only the Ballistic Products TPS 1275 wad which we alter by cutting to the proper length and make tangent, rather than radial, slits between petals. The stock wads will result in increased chamber pressures and reduce barrel protection from Tungsten Super Shot."


"Our latest load configurations have been shot through multiple gunbarrels with no visible effect.

In addition, we have shot several hundred rounds through barrels using much inferior protection than we are using today. While these barrels DO have scratches, the bore diameters have not changed by any appreciable amount and we will continue to use them. "

Obviously a specialty product - for now.

Material Density (g/cc)
Steel 7.8
Lead 11
Hevi-Shot™ 12
Remington Wingmaster HD™ 12
TSS™ 18

 

[HB]

A 12 gauge is the best all around gun in my opinion. It makes hitting geese and ducks easier, takes down deer better (though that is changing with slug technology), and throws more shot out there than the smaller gauges. They are the most versatile because you can load anything from 7/8oz AA for clays and rabbits to steel BB for geese. When a new shooter asks me what kind of gun to buy, I say check out a 12 gauge 870, 500 or BPS. However, these are usually hunters, which makes a big difference. You can always download but you can't upload in the smaller gauges (that will pattern well).

That being said, they don't point or feel as good as the smaller gauges. I'm looking to buy a nice 20 or 28 because most of my hunting now is rabbits, quail and pheasants, or doves. I love my 12 gauge BPS, but its heavy for upland game and kind of shreds doves I've only owned a .410 for about a year now, but I'm not impressed really. Fine for stationary squirrels, but you have to really lay it on them if your shooting at running rabbits or flying doves. Though it carries like a whiffle ball bat! I think a 28 will be my best bet, but shells are expensive and not available everywhere, at least in a good variety.

I don't see much difference between how I shoot sporting clays with a 20 or a 12, but the BPS 12 fits me well and is a great gun for trap. Heavy enough to soak up recoil but well balanced.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I argue that for one gun a 20 ga is just as good as a 12 for the most versatile option but I would still get a 20 and just use it within its and my own limitations. The times I go for waterfowl and turkey I might not have the best tool for the job but then again the 12 isnt the best tool for smaller game.

 

[ArmedBear]

Bear in mind that I'm not thinking of "deer gun" when I read "shotgun."

My apologies to anyone who is legally required to shoot deer with a nominal "shotgun", but I'm only considering applications that involve the use of shot on moving targets (turkey guns having become a very different niche, as well).

 

[chas08]

Does tungsten require steel-rated barrels/chokes?

It depends on how the shot is made. But generally speaking, Yes. If it is a polymer bonded tungtsen powder such as Kent Tungsten-Matrix, then No. I have seen chokes made specifically for Hevi-Shot, which has tungsten in it, that had a warning not to shoot steel through it. One of the biggest advancements in the non-toxic shot industry is not in the shot but rather in the shot cup. I've picked up a lot of them in my decoy spreads over the last four years, and I've not found a scuffed through cup yet. Years ago they looked like a collander and you could see the streaks in your barrel. Not so today. I suspect that todays steel and tungsten shot could be fired through a lot of guns that it was once considered to be taboo. Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting to anyone to go out and do it. Opinions were formed on 30 year old technology and hasn't changed with the times. And no ammunition manufacturer is going to stick his neck out that far.

 

[ArmedBear]

And no ammunition manufacturer is going to stick his neck out that far.

Well, some of those old shotguns are worth 50 grand, too...

What about effective choke with these new wads? Are patterns overly-tight like steel, or are they closer to lead?

None of the lead-only guns I own have screw-in chokes, and I would guess that this isn't uncommon.

 

[1858rem]

why do .410 cost 10 bucks/25! no demand anymore?

 

[chas08]

What about effective choke with these new wads? Are patterns overly-tight like steel, or are they closer to lead?

In my experience, more like steel.