Are there any reliable one shot stop statistics ?

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caliber not shot placement

I just had to get in on this one. There's little to argue about : shot placement is more important than caliber. I'm sick of hearing that. Once you establish that fact, then we want to talk about which caliber is best. There's no doubt, I'd rather have a 45acp in my hand in the time of need than a 25acp. Can anyone tell me I'm wrong? So, we want to argue about which caliber is best. There's probably no absolute correct answer to this. But, it's fun to argue the point. Let's keep the subject about caliber. We're not talking about "whatever gun you feel comfortable with" and "shot placement". We all know how important those things are. Let's talk calibers.
 
A pretty well beat-to-death subject, but I can't help but add my two cents.

It seems to me that the obvious answer to a question like "What handgun caliber works best for defense?" is to go and look at actual results. This is what M&S did, albeit perhaps imperfectly. Results thereof did not mesh with a particular caliber/bullet ideology, which resulted in the predictable childishness. (See RyanM's oft-cited http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm link.)

Personally, it makes sense to me to carry the largest and most powerful round you can manage effectively (would you hunt man-sized deer with a 125 JHP or 230 RN, if you could help it?) and spend more time worrying about how to avoid needing it.
 
I believe that Officer Marshall is a decent man, a good street cop. I hold him in high esteem.

However, his 'partner' is something else.
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth.

If Marshall actually believed in the one shot stop as a general unit of measure, his strategy would not be to open fire until all three carry handguns were empty, and hope the sustained fire allowed him to get to his rifle or shotgun.
 
Twenty five years responding to GSW's in the E.R's of various hospitals in several war zones of this country have left me convinced of this:

357---very nasty round IF equipped with good hollowpoints. I've only seen five individuals come into an E.R. after being shot with this round. Three were D.O.A., one bled to death from one round into the groin that hit the femoral artery; one made it through surgery and lived.

9mm--second most effective round. I will say it's not unusual to find guys in the E.R. with up to 6 slugs in them, still very much alive and talking. They were out of the fight, but alive.

45 ACP---third choice. If you pick your ammo very carefully (heavy slug, high FPS and Corbons), a 45 can be very lethal. On the other hand, I've seen a number of guys that took multiple rounds before they went down.

Anything other than these three--it's really shot placement. We had a stripper come in one night who had the misfortune to walk out of the club into the middle of a gunfight. She caught a .380 just to the right of her nose and was D.O.A.---so the little slugs can kill too!

Bill
 
best one shot stops

OK, now we're at the point of voting. Just like an election we may as well vote for the best caliber.
Since nobody can prove I'm wrong Here's my vote.
The four best calibers:
41 magnum
357 magnum
44 magnum
357 sig


watch your top knot
 
This is one of the more sane and civil discussions of this topic that I have seen. Definitely High Road. Good job all around.

There will never be an irrefutable answer to the stopping power question. I know a WWII vet who said that he has seen people run a block after getting shot with the 30-06. He was not given to exaggeration and I have no reason to doubt him. Deer do things like this all the time. It appears some humans do as well.
 
Okay didn't read everything but I will so don't worry but I can pretty much assume (make and @$$ outta U and ME) that no one has covered this.

ONE SHOT STOPPER:

Any caliber (of course this is a shot placement thing) will stop/kill anyone if..

YOU SHOOT THEM IN THE DOME/HEAD especially if it severs the cerebral cortex from everything else.

.22lr and .22 are/were statistically proven to be the prefered assassin's bullet. (most assassin's chose to be up close and personal with the Vic.) I did also read this back in 97 when I was in high school and into the splinter cell tenchu stealth assassin games and decided to search the internet for said info. So some if not all this info I just gave could be irrelavant by now.

Anyways the point I am making is

You :cuss: up the brain and one shot is all it takes threat down and most likely threat DEAD!!!
 
Twenty five years responding to GSW's in the E.R's of various hospitals in several war zones of this country have left me convinced of this:

357---very nasty round IF equipped with good hollowpoints. I've only seen five individuals come into an E.R. after being shot with this round. Three were D.O.A., one bled to death from one round into the groin that hit the femoral artery; one made it through surgery and lived.

9mm--second most effective round. I will say it's not unusual to find guys in the E.R. with up to 6 slugs in them, still very much alive and talking. They were out of the fight, but alive.

45 ACP---third choice. If you pick your ammo very carefully (heavy slug, high FPS and Corbons), a 45 can be very lethal. On the other hand, I've seen a number of guys that took multiple rounds before they went down.

Anything other than these three--it's really shot placement. We had a stripper come in one night who had the misfortune to walk out of the club into the middle of a gunfight. She caught a .380 just to the right of her nose and was D.O.A.---so the little slugs can kill too!

Bill
Click to expand...

Not to be a jerk bill but this info is also subjective. Most gang-banger, thugs, gangsta's, etc... care the almighty (YEAH RIGHT) 9mm (NINE, for you G-Unit, .50cent thugs out there, no offense my :cuss: LoL!!!)

Why??? It's cheaper and easier (sometimes) to conceal how many of these fools and criminals have the money or the 5-finga discount ability to get their dirty grubby hands on anythign else???

So with that said yeah you info is subjective.

How many of those cases involed police casualties, civilian casualties, casualties caused by the police, the criminals, and or innocent civilians??

All these are factors that yet again are being left out in the stats.

Distance, caliber, propellent type and amount, shot placement, condition of target (drugs no drugs, to include alcohol, otc's, and perscripts) armor no armor. etc... the list is endless with combos and change stats drastically from situation to situation.

I am not going to listen to what a mag tells me, I will go with shear comfortability and gut instinct, to care me thru.

I choose .45acp with nasty JHP

Why??? not the stats that's for sure. Because I have seen what the round does to the different targets and a wall unfortunately and I know that if it does that to hard surfaces what will it do to a man???

Again *SIGH* shot placement is the key factor here not the caliber.

a .22 in the head turns your brain to red pudding that will ooze out your ears and the hole of impact. by the time you hit the ground. that said .22 = 100% one shot stop. Do I carry a .22 for this fact NOT USUALLY but I have.

.45 (good JHP ammo) to the chest direct impact to the heart, heart (metaphorically) explodes. .45 = 100%. Do I carry that for this reason... yeah kinda but not really.

It's also a preference thing.

Like one of you said what are you comfortable with, what do you shoot accurately.

All guns where made to do the same thing, just like how all bow & arrow, knives, sharp stick, etc... Kill no matter how many shots fired or stabs/slashes given, the resulting operation of interest is the same KILL!!!

So why do we have this debate??? I for one think that this is fun. Helpful??? depends on who you are, for me sure it is. I can learn alot about my .45 and .22lr rounds here in this thread. But what I won't walk away with is anything that will do me any good unless

A: I am given a stiuation to use said knowledge.

B: put said knowledge to efficient/effective use at said time of situation.

This debate has been fun, but don't some of you feel that it is getting old and redundent???

USMCDK
 
Not to be a jerk bill but this info is also subjective. Most gang-banger, thugs, gangsta's, etc... care the almighty (YEAH RIGHT) 9mm (NINE, for you G-Unit, .50cent thugs out there, no offense my LoL!!!)
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Was there a point to this comment? The police carry 9mm, a whole lot of average citizens carry 9mm, and the ammo is real cheap. You find lots of 9mm gsw's in an E.R.

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Why??? not the stats that's for sure. Because I have seen what the round does to the different targets and a wall unfortunately and I know that if it does that to hard surfaces what will it do to a man???
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Probably not what you think it will! That was the point of my post---I've seen 'up close and personal' what many of these rounds do. You can conjure up all sorts of variables and 'what if's', but I can tell you one of the things the E.R. staff asks when a gsw is coming in is 'large calibrer or small'? The reason is the amount of damage that is done and how much of a mess we will be looking at.

BTW, your 45 and it's round is a good selection, based on what I've seen.
 
Not to be a jerk bill but this info is also subjective. Most gang-banger, thugs, gangsta's, etc... care the almighty (YEAH RIGHT) 9mm (NINE, for you G-Unit, .50cent thugs out there, no offense my LoL!!!)
------------------------------------------------------
Was there a point to this comment? The police carry 9mm, a whole lot of average citizens carry 9mm, and the ammo is real cheap. You find lots of 9mm gsw's in an E.R.

----------------------------------------------------------
Why??? not the stats that's for sure. Because I have seen what the round does to the different targets and a wall unfortunately and I know that if it does that to hard surfaces what will it do to a man???
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Probably not what you think it will! That was the point of my post---I've seen 'up close and personal' what many of these rounds do. You can conjure up all sorts of variables and 'what if's', but I can tell you one of the things the E.R. staff asks when a gsw is coming in is 'large calibrer or small'? The reason is the amount of damage that is done and how much of a mess we will be looking at.

BTW, your 45 and it's round is a good selection, based on what I've seen.
Click to expand...

1a: Yes there is a point. That is, your stats are based on how many people have come in with 9mm GSW's as apposed to the other calibers. My point is that most of the victims have said wounds because most wounds were probably inflicted by said group of wanna-be gangsters. Said people preferably use said weapons because of what I expressed. 1b: Therefore a bias toward stats.

2: I undeerstand the point of your post but as with what I said in section (1b:) would be my arguement once again.

Thank you on the compliment to my choice of ammo and caliber.
 
"a .22 in the head turns your brain to red pudding that will ooze out your ears and the hole of impact. by the time you hit the ground. that said .22 = 100% one shot stop. Do I carry a .22 for this fact NOT USUALLY but I have."

Young Marine, There are many people walking around with 22 bullets or pieces of shrapnel in their brains as we sit here and read. They may have headaches, but they are definitely not dead. Ergo: One .22 to the head = not 100% incapacitation. Go to plan B.
 
Handguns are inherently under-powered. We carry them because they are portable, not because they are powerful. No handgun is a reliable one-shot stopper unless that one shot is placed above the tip of the nose, below the eyebrows and within the width of the eyes. That is the ocular-cranial cavity and is a kill-shot with virtually any gun. Its also a VERY small target.

I was trained to put a controlled pair into the thorasic cavity (below the shoulders and above the sternum). If that does not stop the attack, the next shot should be an ocular-cranial head shot. I think that training makes very good sense.
 
I wanted to reinforce the comments already made about the civil quality of this discussion. It was refreshing to see this topic covered without the usual testosterone overload. Thanks to all.
 
Lookout!

Is nobody going to mention the Strasbourg Tests, what, about fifteen years ago? Hundreds of live, adult French goats were scientifically shot with a large variety of brands and types of bullets, and their total incapacitation times were carefully measured, then the bullets were examined for expansion I think. The standard pressure PMC Starfire 9mm placed highest I believe, just under the Magsafe frangible, if I remember right.

What I DON'T remember is if they fired other calibers for comparison. I think it was just a test for NATO development, and I cannot remember if they considered anything other than 9mm.

So, who can fire up this excellent debate again?......................elsullo
 
Is nobody going to mention the Strasbourg Tests
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You mean the tests that may or may not have actually occurred?

The tests where no one actually claims authorship?

The tests were there is no actual data to review, just an abstract of the data that was turned into a gun magazine article?

You mean those tests, that without data to review and with unknown authorship, have no scientific validity?

Or are there some *other* "Strassburg goat tests" out there that I'm not familiar with?

I'll give credence to those tests when the author is publically known and the test data is available to review. Until then, they are worthless.
 
Took CCW Class last week and the instructor had results from a goat test and said the reason it was not made public, was because the Animal Rights People would explode, but the results that he read on one shot kill was .357 98%, was the highest , but all of the big bores ie, 45,44,41& 38 Spcl were all above 90%. The big surprise for me was the .25 was not much more than half of what the .22 was. Do not know if anything was scientific or not.
 
DKA---the 'scientific' part of things is the hangup. There's always going to be ways to poke holes in any study. The results you cited are in line with what I've seen. Can you take down a big cow with a 22 magnum round? Yep, I've seen it done by a butcher field butchering cows for me on several occasions. OTH, I had a big Spanish-Brahma bull that darn near got the butcher and really made him wish that he had brought a 308! Bigger is better, but little can still get the job done is how I see it.
 
I'll add some information for you all. Not supporting any particular position and I carry a varirty of stuff in SD weapons.

I hunt deer with handguns. Have for quite sometime. Yes, it's harder than rifles, but I like it that way for some reason.

Deer have tougher hides than we do, more fragile (but denser) bone structures and depending on relative size similar internal organ density.

Most of my experience is with the .357 magnum caliber. I have used both hot and fast light bullets and heavier/slower loads.

I'm also lazy. I don't like chasing blood trails forever and prefer to anchor a deer close to where I shoot it.

From this VERY unscientific perspective. I feel that velocity and bullet weight each have limitations.

Too light is too light regardless of how fast and, conversely, heavy bullets pushed below 1000 fps perform poorly.

I use a 125 grain JSP at 1,550 fps (from a 6" GP100) and have tried bonded hollowpoints at the same weight/velocity as well as 110 grainers going Mach 5 which all also work well. I noticed they tended to expand as advertised, but deflected more often than I liked which can cause problems shooting through the shoulders occasionally.

In the heavy and slow category, I've used up to 200 grain hard cast SWC's at about 1,000 FPS. Neither the 200 HC or 125 JSP tend to expand much, both penetrate well (mostly clear through_ but I have found the faster 125 seems to put deer down better.

Have no clue of the science behind it, just 20 years of shooting deer (3-4 a year) with the same gun using various loads.

So while that's not useful in evaluating different calibers, It may be useful for opinions about fast/light vs. heavy/slow in the same bullet diameter.
 
To the original poster.

Answer . . .

Take up deer hunting and select a powerful deer rifle.

Hunt for about ten years and take lots of deer.

Notice how your shot placement varies a little

Notice how some drop like a stone, whereas others run away like they weren't hit . . . only to pile up a 100-300 yards away with a very similar shot placement vs. another deer that dropped like a stone.

Notice how if your shot doesn't hit exactly where it should the deer usually doesn't go down . . . or else jumps back off and runs off.


CONCLUSIONS . . .

1. SHOT PLACEMENT IS KING!

2. GREAT BULLETS, PUT IN THE WRONG PLACE, GIVE LESS THAN SATISFACTORY RESULTS

3. SOMETIMES YOU GET LUCKY . . . SOMETIMES YOU DON'T


HOW THIS RELATES TO HANDGUNS . . .

If a powerful rifle bullet lacks 100% effectiveness, how can you truly rate handgun bullets?

Also,

Don't be surprised if a human target keeps fighting you, even with great shot placement, a serious caliber hit, and a great bullet design.


Finally, ya need to practice, have a great caliber choice, and a great bullet design to increase your chances of survival in a handgun fight . . . plus a little luck too!

T.
 
dont know much about all these professionals being talked about here,and by no means do i mean to be disrespectful ,hopefully this doesent sound that way,but i was told by my father,who was an ex-navy seal,that did 3 tours in vietnam,dont stop pulling the trigger till they fall, as far as size of the calaber,they use 9 mm.,works well for them
 
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