Are we kidding ourselves with these 7 round guns?

[Twiki357]

A lot of different preferences expressed here. It all boils down to what ever the individual is comfortable with.

Personally, I was comfortable with a 5 shot model 36 when I was working in Watts back in the 1960s right after the Watts riots. Now days, after physical changes that came with age, it’s a model 37 and suspenders.

 

[Cee Zee]

I carried a 7 round Sig P220 for years. The trick to low capacity is more magazines. Duh! It was a no-brainer IMO that I wanted more mags with me with that pistol. I carried about 4-5 extra mags usually. That was really quite a few rounds.

I now carry a .40 that holds 16+1. Guess what. I still carry extra mags. As Deputy Clyde in "Unforgiven" said, "I don't want to get killed from lack of being able to shoot back."

But then I also carry my LCP especially in the summer. With extra mags of course but I can shoot all day with the Springfield XDm I keep with me in the car and sometimes carry concealed. It's just I've gotten to the point where carrying all that weight is getting hard on my old back. It stinks but there it is. I rarely go out to the wild country any more too. I used to ride my ATV many miles away from civilization and I wanted to be able to fight back in a bad situation with something more than a pocket pistol. The thing about that Sig that I carried most of those years was that it's crazy accurate so I feel more secure with less rounds. I figure if I need more than 30 rounds I really need help more than anything. But like I say I don't ride to the wild country anymore. I pretty much wore out that thrill by going everywhere I could go many times. There are only so many trails in the world even where I live.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I'd like to hear of any accounts of citizens with 5/7 shot handguns dying in the streets cause they ran out of ammo. Personally I've never heard of a documented case, but there could be some.

Now I still carry my Glock 26 and a spare mag (and I still feel one needs to carry the most powerful handgun you can control and one should train often and hard) but one dances with what one brings and it looks like most folks can dance fine with lower capacity guns.

Oh, and folks, they made the custom S&W ASP 9mm and mini-45s long before the NY law.

Deaf

 

[BLB68]

Three seconds? An attacker moving at five meters per second would make short work of a defender who took that long to shoot after drawing.

I was under the impression that the three seconds bit was the total length of the encounter, probably from after the shooting starts.

I'm also under the impression that people like threes a whole lot, so mostly disregard that "rule."

I do carry 9. That's three threes.

(Plus a reload, but that screws the threes thing up, so I won't mention it.)

 

[Ash]

Prior to Hurricane Katrina, I had an eclectic array of firearms - most being C&R. I had a .45acp Tanfoglio I kept for negative social encounters. It was reliable, never giving me problems over many rounds of fire. One day I get a CZ-75 military model. I figured it would become my go-to pistol as the internet forums were clearly down with Tanfoglio and up with CZ. Even though I'd never had problems with that Tanfoglio (I had an earlier compact that had to be sent in, but that pistol worked fine), the CZ was my new open carry pistol.

Then came Katrina. We were hit hard, the eye wall passed overhead. My family was safe, but we were without power and running water. I had plenty of stored water and power is not something humans must have to live, but I did have a 9 month old son. The process of making emergency repairs to the house and clearing debris began, and remembering my mom's experience after Hurricane Camile, I strapped on my side arm.

Instead of grabbing that CZ with its 15 rounds, I opted for the Tanfoglio with its ten. I carried it for a couple of days, long enough to be certain that our town would remain civilized even in the midst of disaster (rural folks don't go all Lord of the Flies like city dwellers can, I suppose). I put the Tanfoglio back up and kept going with the chainsaw.

10 rounds of 45acp was, for me, sufficient for any task given me. Some years later, I gravitated towards a Ruger Police Service Six in .357. That is what I open carry today and I know I am well-protected. 6 rounds is enough for me. Others might disagree, but the one shooting my family experienced the baddie shot 4 times my great great grandfather shot once.

6 does it for me.

 

[Pilot]

I have always felt well armed with 7 + 1 of .45 ACP in a 1911. However, I don't like these illegal restrictions and often carry a 14 + 1 9MM CZ-75D PCR which is legal in my state.

 

[Ash]

I agree with that. If a man wants 15 rounds, he should have 15 rounds. Indeed, we are all citizens here, not subjects to the king. As citizens, we have every legitimate right to the same number of rounds in a magazine with the same kinds of rounds used as any police force in this nation. Police are, after all, civilians. They are us and we are them separated merely by choice of profession and the obligations that come with that.

No law that denies us equal treatment with our government is right.

 

[Zeke/PA]

Heck, I'm comfortable with my 5 shot 38 snub.

Me too!
My 638 is my concealed carry piece and I can quickly get it into action without fumbling with hammers,de-cockers ,safeties etc.

 

[bannockburn]

If feeling comfortable with your CCW means having less rounds in your gun, then so be it. When I carry my S&W Model 638 I take along a couple of speedloaders; when it's my Kahr CM9 it's two spare magazines. Never have felt undergunned with either set-up.

 

[M1key]

3+3+3?

FBI stats show violent encounters often involve multiple assailants. Two most frequent comments: "It happened so fast, I didn't have time to react" and "I never thought it would happen to me".

On another note: My CCW instructor, as a sheriff deputy, had to shoot 5 people in the line of duty. One case involved serving a warrant with a federal agent backing him while retrieving a fellow on an Indian reservation. The suspect came charging out of the house with a hatchet. The deputy drew and fired 6 full-house .357 magnum rounds hitting center of mass with the agent adding two or three .38 spls--without any visible effect. The suspect still had to be wrestled to the ground and the hatchet taken away. He died on the way to the hospital. Toxicology screen showed high levels of drugs in his system.

My instructor now carries a .45 ACP pistol and recommends carrying an extra mag.

Stay safe. Don't be stupid. Presume nothing.

M

 

[DHJenkins]

When it's 100+ degrees and 80%+ humidity, carrying a full sized anything concealed can be rough; to the point where (for some) it's more trouble than it's worth.

Manufacturers are making more "pocket pistols" because people buy them - everywhere; not just in the very few states with high-cap restrictions.

 

[BLB68]

At least it's not the Old West, then we'd be arguing about whether 2 rounds in a derringer was better than nothing.

 

[fastbolt]

Lots of different influences probably coming together at this time.

I remember when they had me turn in my service revolver and take in its place a hi-cap aluminum-framed 9mm pistol, and the primary explanation was that we were now able to carry more ammunition, (meaning 43 rounds - and later 46 rounds, with upgraded mags - versus the minimum 18 rounds required when revolvers were being carried). Okay, fine.

Then, there came a time when the 10-rd magazine/feeding device laws were happening at the fed and state level where I lived & worked (CA).

During that time I could still buy magazines that had higher than 10-rd capacities due to my LE status/exemption. Oddly enough, during that time I only bought 1 pistol for which higher than 10-rd capacity mags were available, and the "hi-cap" mags it used only held 12 rounds.

I still own that .40 pistol that uses 12-rd mags, but I also have a lot of 10-rd mags for it, just in case CA ever changes its laws to eliminate the 'pre-ban, grand fathered' exemption for private citizens and retired LE (they came close last year). It will be annoying if that happens, but the world won't stop turning.

All the rest of my collection of semiauto pistols I used to use for off-duty, and now for retirement CCW, have standard mag capacities of 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10-rds.

I still own & use several 5-shot snub revolvers, too.

In recent years we've seen the .380 ACP become the fastest growing and selling pistol caliber for non-LE/private citizen sales (according to the Glock instructor in my last armorer recert), and the gun companies have certainly been working to benefit from, and feed into, that popularity.

The demand for single stack 9's has been growing, as well, mostly meaning magazine capacities of 6-8 rounds. The demand for small compact/compact single stack .40's & .45's has also resulted in mag capacities of 5-7 rounds becoming "normal" and apparently acceptable, too.

I doubt the growing demand for smallish private citizen CCW & LE off-duty/secondary weapons is going to abate overnight.

Now, as a firearms instructor, I've often suspected that more than a few folks who carried hi-cap guns might be "kidding themselves" when it came to realistically evaluating their abilities, knowledge and skillset, and might be hoping "higher capacity" would somehow offset their shortcomings in those other areas.

Ditto some folks who promoted some particular caliber, or brand of ammo, as being "superior" to other choices.

Confidence in equipment (which includes "capacity" considerations) is all well and good, as long as it's justified, and doesn't distract needed attention from the user considerations.

 

[giggitygiggity]

I do not see it as necessarily us regressing. If you look at the gun market, we have Surefire making magazines that hold 100 rounds, we see all kinds of innovative suppressors from SilencerCo and other makes, we see just about everyone making ARs and 1911s. I think the high capacity pistols were a big hit and they aren't going to go away. However, I think that as we moved past the big, high capacity pistols, people realized that what they really wanted was something that was small, thin, and concealable so that they could pack heat whenever, wherever, and in any garment. I have high capacity, full-sized pistols of various makes, yet I always seem to gravitate towards those smaller pistols (LCP, XDS, Shield) because I can carry them more comfortably and aren't merely range guns or guns that I open carry. I would see it as a rather good thing because it means that more people are concealed carrying.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ash:

Some years later, I gravitated towards a Ruger Police Service Six in .357. That is what I open carry today and I know I am well-protected. 6 rounds is enough for me. Others might disagree, but the one shooting my family experienced the baddie shot 4 times my great great grandfather shot once.

6 does it for me.

Six, or fewer, may suffice, on one particular occasion. Six may suffice every other time. Six may even suffice more than half the time.

But on one occasion, or maybe more, six may not prove adequate. Misses (they happen), failures to hit anything vital (they happen, too), the emergence of a second or third violent criminal actor (which can be expected more often than not), all figure in.

One should really consider what one would do on those rare occasions.

For that very rare deadly force encounter, maybe one in a lifetime, the outcome will be very much a matter of the luck of the draw. Which card will one get?

If one were really able to stop shooting at an attacker immediately upon scoring that last necessary hit, fewer rounds would be required. But that's highly unlikely. Defenders are responsibly trained to shoot several times very quickly (it's a good idea to be able to prove that such training was received); if one shoots four times in one second at a charging attacker, that doesn't leave many rounds with which to deal with the rest of the situation, does it?

Capacity is but one factor, and more rounds cannot and will not ensure success, but, depending upon all of the other variables, having too few just be the determinant for failure.

 

[kapie]

I feel confident with a snubbie at close range. Semi auto pistols with high capacity magazines, Maybe it's just an indicator of how many people are poor shots.

 

[george burns]

Statistics show what they show, about 40-50% missed shots during gunfights. That doesn't leave much if you have a 5 round gun.
I carried one for over 20 years in NYC before moving to FL 25 years ago. At that time we didn't have the screwed up world that we find ourselves with now. Not many mass murders or worries about roving gangs with AK47's or Hi-capacity magazines driving around waiting for crimes of opportunity to show themselves.
Life was much simpler then, and I always felt fine with 5 rounds of 38 caliber ammo with a speed loader In my jacket.
but these are different times in which we live. Where if someone attacks you, there is a good chance they will have a weapon that has a lot more bullets than back then, and possibly a few friends who also have similar interests.
Now I am not saying that you are going to stand around and trade shots with 2 or 4 guys with heavy artillery, but you may need something that can lay down enough suppressive fire for you to escape.
And yes I have been shot at.

 

[TomJ]

1. The guns manufacturers produce will be driven by consumer demand, limits set by law and limits set by technology, manufacturing capabilities, etc. When consumers demanded a high capacity handgun, manufacturers met the demand for jurisdictions where they're allowed by law. When they demanded a small, light single stack 9mm, the same occurred. I don't see this changing.

2. As technology improves, guns will improve. By way of example, I recently picked up the LG9S Pro. At 17 ounces, it's at the lighter end of the spectrum. I'll be able to pocket carry it, if necessary with the 7 round magazine in it. I can carry it IWB with a 9 round magazine. With 2 spare magazines, I can now carry 28 rounds of 9mm in a 17 ounce gun, something unheard of a number of years ago. Once I'm comfortable enough with it's reliability, I'm sure it's going to be my main carry gun.

3. What gun people carry is a personal decision, and I don't know that I'm qualified to tell someone their decision is right or wrong. When Illinois passed CC, I preferred something with a high capacity as it's not uncommon for our criminals to run in packs. I didn't want to be confronted by 4 BG's in a car while carrying a 5 shot revolver. When I injured my back a few months ago, I was happy to have a smaller, light weight single stack 9 available to pocket carry. With my back recovering, I can start to carry IWB again and am not limited by what I can pocket carry. Having a variety of guns to choose from allows us to carry, regardless of our situation.

4. File this under personal preference, but I've been surprised enough times when I was a LEO as well as in my personal life to understand that rules don't always apply. By way of example, we moved from a suburb bordering Chicago's West Side, as the area was changing for the worse, to another suburb with a negligible crime rate. Shortly after we moved to this "safer" suburb, I walked into an armed robbery in front of my house, where 4 guys in a car robbed a neighborhood teenager. Illinois did not have CC at the time so I was unarmed, but I can tell you that under those circumstances I would not have felt adequately armed with a 5 shot revolver. I've found it's best to prepare for the worse (within reason) while hoping for the best.

 

[tuj]

fact: 1-shot stops are rare. When they do happen, its usually from a slug, rifle round, or a head-shot. With modern defensive pistol ammunition, the caliber is not as big of a factor as it used to be. Fact is, most pistols suck at 1-shot stops.

*multiple* shot placement is everything.

 

[Ash]

"Capacity is but one factor, and more rounds cannot and will not ensure success, but, depending upon all of the other variables, having too few just be the determinant for failure. "

I am a backpacker. As such, you learn to carry what you need but preparation for every contingency is a waste of space and weight.

Kleen, how many multiple-assailant encounters have you had? As a forester, I have faced guns and have been shot at once. I know 6 rounds works just fine by me. I understand you feel like you need more. Fine by me. Get more. Carry more. As for me, I know what I have and know what I can do with it. I am confident 6 rounds of 357 will do exactly what I need.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ash:

Kleen, how many multiple-assailant encounters have you had?

None. All three of the defensive gun use incidents in which I have been personally engaged involved single intruders, in home invasion incidents.

But...more violent crimes involve two or more attackers than a single attacker.

I know 6 rounds works just fine by me.

There is no possible way for anyone to know that.

One may be able to state that six or fewer rounds have always worked for one, but there is no way to know with any degree of certainty that they will always work.

I understand you feel like you need more.

I have no way of knowing what i might need, and I do not "feel" anything. I do know that if I fire four or five rounds at an attacker, as I have trained, that that will not leave very many.

I am confident 6 rounds of 357 will do exactly what I need.

Do you base that on any kind of objective analysis?

 

[230RN]

Posted on wrong thread. Sorry. Too many tabs open at the same time.

 

[marsofold]

I carry a stainless Springfield 1911 with six FMJ in the mag to maximize feed probability and one HP in the chamber. Cocked and locked.

 

[Ash]

So, Kleen, you tell all of us who carry revolvers we are fools? What of those who seek out the newest Glock? What about pocket pistols?

6 rounds is just fine.

 

[JERRY]

personal protection and or law enforcement would consider it prudent to at least match what the criminals usually carry. if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

in the 70s a 5 shot j frame type revolver was a good choice when the criminals were armed with switch blades and or the occasional .25acp or something. as the criminal increased their armament it because wise for the cops and private citizens to do the same.