Are we kidding ourselves with these 7 round guns?

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ash:

So, Kleen, you tell all of us who carry revolvers we are fools?

No.

I have several. Some serve for backup. One holds seven rounds.

What of those who seek out the newest Glock? What about pocket pistols?

They have their uses.

6 rounds is just fine.

Sometimes, and sometimes not.

 

[Robert]

Semi auto pistols with high capacity magazines, Maybe it's just an indicator of how many people are poor shots.

I have seen people with revolvers that are not able to hit the side of a barn and people with 15 round mags that can make one ragged hole with all 15. The notion that just because one carries a semi auto with a larger capacity than a revolver makes them a bad shot is just silly.

 

[RustyShackelford]

3x3x3 Rule, misquoted ...

Yes, the 3x3x3 Rule is misquoted often, that's why I added emphasis to the label: armed citizen. Not a deputy sheriff, not a cop in a riot, not a military service member down range, .

I stand by my remarks that most CCW/armed citizen lethal force incidents will be fast, dirty and violent .
Having a decent revolver or semi auto will be a big help. Knowing how to use it properly helps too, .

 

[Old Dog]

Funny, when I read the OP, I thought this thread was about the possibility of the governments, noting the public's recent acceptance of, and fondness for, smaller-capacity handguns, using this newfound proclivity on the part of gun-owners toward smaller guns to facilitate the initiation of new laws restricting magazine capacity.

Guess it's turned into the same old tired "how many bullets is enough?" thread.

Me, I plan for worst-case (being stuck coming or going from work, or otherwise out and about, during a natural disaster or other critical event) and pack at least 16 to 19 rounds in the pistol (SIG P-226/228/229) and two extra-capacity (18 - 20 round) mags on the belt. But for those of you who don't live in areas that are expecting 10-point earthquakes, tsunamis, mass civil unrest or suffer from the usual urban gang violence or rural drug trade violence, I'm sure five rounds in a J-frame is sufficient ...

 

[Fast Frank]

3x3x3 Rule, misquoted

Yeah, I heard it like this:

You can last three weeks without food.

You can last three days without water.

You can last three minutes without air.

But you will NOT last three seconds without ammo.

I think that version is mostly true.

(I carry a 1911 in .45ACP, 8 round Wilson mag and one in the chamber, and one spare mag. 17 rounds total.)

 

[slumlord44]

Cause and effect can get confusing. If you have 15 rounds, in my opinion, you are more likely to "spray and pray". If I have only one round you can be sure I will make sure I do not miss with it. To me the large capacity magazines are responsible for a lot of collateral damage. I learned way back that there is no way to be totally prepared for every problem that may come along. If you carry 100 rounds one day you need 101. Carry what you are comfortable with.

 

[Cee Zee]

Kleen, how many multiple-assailant encounters have you had?

I've had one and it was plenty enough for me thank you. There were 7 of them to be exact. A person would have to be a mighty good shot to stop 7 armed robbers with a 7 shot pistol. That's my thinking and it isn't likely to change. Some bozo came real close to putting me and my wife right in the middle of a cross fire too. He decided to play hero and run for the cops out the front door of the McDonalds that was being robbed. The thing is he didn't know there was another gunman covering the outside of the place. It just so happened that he wasn't seen or I would have had bullets coming from two directions with my wife sitting next to me. We were sitting at the table next to the hero. He was sitting right by the front door away from the counter which is why he thought he could get out unseen. He did but only by pure luck. The guy covering the outside might have chickened out I suppose. Robbing is one thing. Shooting someone is another I guess. Still I had to wonder and even worse (yes I hated this part a lot) the cops made a big deal about how the hero was a great guy. The cops didn't even get to the place until 10 minutes after the robbers had left. Hero had to run a quarter of a mile to the nearest phone and they almost didn't let him use that phone at the Pizza Hut across the highway. The only thing that idiot did was put a bunch of people in danger.

Trust me I would dearly have loved to have a 16+1 round .40 and a few extra mags like I carry now. I wouldn't have shot of course unless they started shooting first. But sitting there like a duck in a shooting gallery was not much fun and watching my wife fear for her life was worse.

I know they say people over react when they have been though something like that. But it's been about 37 years ago or so and I haven't gone on a shooting spree even when I was in the middle of another holdup. I wish I had that time because I got accused of being part of it because I was the only one who even saw it happen in a crowded gas station lot on Christmas Eve. If I had shot the guy I could have spent the evening with my family at my mother's instead of a police station trying to convince idiot cops that I wasn't in on setting the whole thing up. Lucky for the poor attendant at the station because without me speaking up they would have charged him with taking that cash sure as shooting.

 

[Ash]

It seems evident we need to be setting down our autos and going belt-fed if we really want to be safe. If our focus is on multiple attackers, then we need to change from shooting to ways to effectively evade, take cover, and change the situation to our advantage.

Cee Zee, I've been shot at, I know the sounds of bullets zipping through underbrush. I had no idea how many, just that it was a truck at dusk on a property I was on in South Alabama. All I could do at the distance (perhaps 40 yards) was to hunker behind a pine tree - perhaps 20" in diameter - in the brush. They left.

But this I know, one man versus 7, no matter how many rounds you have, is a game-over scenario. 7 men with 5 shot revolvers beats one man with two 15 round Glocks and five magazines each.

In multi-assailant scenarios, there just is simply no way to have the advantage other than with an ambush situation where you shoot first - something we know is already on the thin line of prison time. Round count becomes irrelevant.

How many rounds does a man need against two? A pistol with a 24 round extended magazine against two men with 6 round revolvers is still terribly under-gunned. A man can only shoot at one man at a time. Doing battle with them is either dumb or desperate. Two shooting at him puts the odds so decidedly in their favor that it really doesn't matter what he has.

If we are going all Charles Bronson, then I suggest it is better we discuss how to dig holes under our cabins to hide in so we can blow up our cabin safely. And if we are talking home and hearth, a shotgun (oh, sorry, that's so passe as well, right, let me change that to a tacically-loaded AR) gives advantages to the home-owner, as does a rifle.

If there is more than one assailant, the odds are so badly in their favor that round count is utterly secondary. If we are planning for that route, we need to include daily body armor carry as well.

 

[Cee Zee]

7 men with 5 shot revolvers beats one man with two 15 round Glocks and five magazines each.

I know that. I also know that firing off 10 rounds in a hurry is going to make most people put their head down long enough for me to make it out the door with my wife (same door the hero took). Plus in that situation half of the robbers were carrying .22 rifles. This wasn't exactly Bonnie And Clyde. I had enough cover from the front to give myself a better chance than just sitting there hoping for the best. I would have fired off 4 or 5 and sent my wife out then got up and ran toward the door myself firing off more rounds as I went. It would have been better than just sitting there.

I know there's no magic formula for taking on a bunch of bad guys (although Alvin York did a fair job of it). I just want enough of an edge to give me a chance. And the more rounds the merrier in that situation. Suppressive fire is the term I believe. Most people are going to look for cover unless they have been well trained and clearly that wasn't the case with that crew. Again I haven't gone all John Wayne since that event because they made me mad and I wanted revenge and all the clap trap you hear on TV about people who get a gun after being robbed. Again I certainly wouldn't have fired the first round either. Maybe it would have given me an edge but it might also have led to some bystander being killed by my bullet. Firing back in that situation would be a really bad idea even if the crew wasn't well armed. But it would have been better than sitting in a cross fire hoping for the best.

 

[45_auto]

There were 7 of them to be exact....Plus in that situation half of the robbers were carrying .22 rifles.....I would have fired off 4 or 5 and sent my wife out then got up and ran toward the door myself firing off more rounds as I went. It would have been better than just sitting there.

So what happened to you by just sitting there? Were you or your wife wounded?

If neither of you were hurt in any way by sitting there, why do you think that it would have been better to fire 4 or 5 rounds to draw attention to you and your wife, then send her out into a crossfire of 7 people, half of whom are carrying .22 rifles?

 

[ku4hx]

Don't know about the rest of humanity, but in my life I've had a number of, "Boy I wish I'd done so-and-so." moments. The point is you do the best you can with what you have. You [hopefully] make an informed decision, carry what seems right for you, gain proficiency and every now and then do an agonizing reappraisal and see if yesterday's decision fits today's paradigm.

One day in 1989 ( I remember the year because it was the year I got divorced), I and a buddy was at our shooting club when in comes a member with a new gun: a Glock 17. He was one proud shooter. All of us were at that time revolver devotees.

My friend with his brand new 17 unleashed a full magazine at a B29 silhouette and didn't put a single round anywhere near what is normally considered a good hit. My other friend did his typical body, body, head routine twice and his shots went exactly where he intended.

I have no idea if the fellow with the 17 ever got any better, he likely did, but I can tell you without reservation which one I'd rather have with me in a firefight.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Are we kidding ourselves with these 7 round guns?

No more than we kid ourselves with our 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, etc.. round guns.

It's the one behind the gun that matters the most.

The most important shot is not the 10th or 15th or 20th but the first one.

It's nice to have lots of ammo, nice to have powerful ammo, but it's not the primary concern. Skill is the primary concern.

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

The most important shot is not the 10th or 15th or 20th but the first one.

Absolutely. If that one does not have some effect, the assailant will come that much closer and be that much more dangerous, or he may get his shot off.

Of course, one cannot count on the first one. It may not happen to hit anything vital, even if it hits almost exactly where the defender intended to shoot it.

That's why the second, and maybe the third, fourth or so on, need to be fired effectively and very fast.

 

[Cee Zee]

If neither of you were hurt in any way by sitting there, why do you think that it would have been better to fire 4 or 5 rounds to draw attention to you and your wife, then send her out into a crossfire of 7 people, half of whom are carrying .22 rifles?

Maybe you better read my post again friend. I plainly said I would not be shooting unless the hero got a crossfire started with me in the middle (with my wife). My exact words were, "Again I certainly wouldn't have fired the first round either." I was talking about what might happen if the hero got the bad guys shooting in my direction when I said I would fire off a few suppressive rounds to get us out the door. I know how much you want to do a "gotcha" on me but you're going to have to try harder than this. How many times have you tried already???? You cut out half of what I said trying to make me look like I'm reckless. Good grief. Go ahead and nitpick. I'll keep trying to make a positive contribution here.

 

[skoro]

So was I, once, but upon considerable reflection and analysis, and after taking some training, it became evident to me that that "comfort" was rather illusory.

Of course, each of us has a different set of likely threats and we each have to analyze that and prepare accordingly. I'm a very unlikely target not engaged in any risky business. My 38 snub is plenty for my purposes.

 

[45_auto]

Maybe you better read my post again friend.

Post #59. You wrote it, not me.

Gotcha again!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posed by skoro:

Of course, each of us has a different set of likely threats and we each have to analyze that and prepare accordingly. I'm a very unlikely target not engaged in any risky business. My 38 snub is plenty for my purposes.

Here's the thing: no matter how likely or unlikely a risk may be, once it materializes, the necessary means of dealing with it is exactly the same.

 

[herrwalther]

I would rather have 7+1 than 0+0.

 

[Cee Zee]

Gotcha again!

OK chief whatever you say.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I carry a 38 most of the time but I also carry a Sigma 40 . I just got to get a better pair of belts to hang it on.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I think the most important thing to be learned from this thread so far is: always use the drive-thru at McDonald's.

CeeZee,

What city and what year did the attack at McDonald's occur? Were the robbers ever apprehended? This incident is similar to another attack at McDonald's I remember hearing about.

 

[Cee Zee]

The city was Morehead, Kentucky which is where I went to college for a while. I also went to the U. Of Kentucky. The year was 1977 so it's been a while back. But that stuff sure sticks with you. I detest that feeling of being powerless when some crud is pointing a gun my way. Morehead is in the mountains of eastern KY if you want to know. You can find the particular particular McDonalds here. I look at the Pizza Hut across the road and it isn't quite as far as I remembered but that's a busy road and there was nothing else in the area back then. There was a door at the front of that McDonalds at the time which is where the hero made his exit heading across the road to Pizza Hut to use the phone.

The robbers were caught 6 weeks later. They didn't even have a car on the lot. They left on foot through the woods behind the place and up the mountain there. That bozo didn't accomplish a thing by running out the door. I might have thought it was a good idea but the town had maybe one cop on duty at a time in those days. It was a sleepy little college town. There were some campus cops but that was off their turf of course. There was zero chance they were going to catch those guys at the McDonalds and it's probably a good thing they didn't because there were 7 of them all with guns. I know there weren't that many cops on duty at the time. Not a chance.

Obviously the area looks different now but it's still in the same place. That town has doubled in population since those days. I bet there weren't more than 3000 people in the town when I went to school there. It still isn't exactly a big place.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I tried to google the McDonald's attack I have a hazy memory of hearing about that had multiple assailants. Guess what, it is easier to find a needle in a haystack. You were lucky Cee Zee, McDonald's are robbed so often my joking mention of always use the drive-thru is not much of a joke.

 

[Cee Zee]

It was plumb shocking for anything to be robbed in that area in those days. And to have a 7 man crew working was really something. It was big time headlines around the area for a while. They roughed some people up too slamming them against walls and counters. They hurt some of the employees there. McDonalds was the only real fast food place in the town (unless you count Pizza Hut) in those days and they did a ton of business. They had a whole bunch of cash and the bad guys showed up right before closing time so they could get a big score. They had it planned out pretty well. They did make it out of town but you know how it is. Somebody will brag to their friends eventually unless it's a real pro crew. That's how they got caught. It was a town 40 miles away where they were all caught.

 

[RustyShackelford]

3 rounds?....

I'm confused by #55, .
Who's saying you'll have no rounds?

Even with a 6-7 round compact pistol & 2/3 extra magazines you'll have a total of 19-21 rounds, .
Is 21 rounds of a defense caliber(.40, 9x19mm, .380acp, .357sig, etc) not enough?

Forum members are twisting statements around and playing bumper cars with the posts, .
In short, if you want to strut down Main St with a Glock 34 and 5 33rd 9mm magazines have at it, .

I'll stick with my Shield 9mm and 2 M&P magazines. Then at night or for low light times, use my Glock 21 gen 04 .45acp with 2 13rd .45acp mags.

RS