Are we kidding ourselves with these 7 round guns?
- Thread starter george burns
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Fast Frank
Member
rusty said:
Nobody said "You Will Have No Rounds".
The point behind the saying I quoted is that survival requires SOME ammo.
Personally, I don't think carrying a whole truck load of ammo is reasonable as witnessed by my loaded pistol and one spare mag.
In my thinking, the spare mag isn't for a tactical reload during combat. It's so I will have some ammo for the ride home if I have to use it.
So far, so good... I haven't had to use it yet.
flphotog
Member
I carry 7 rounds in my CZ 75B, I just don't talk about the other 10
jimbo555
Member
Your really in trouble if you only have 7 rounds in a marginal caliber!
Neo-Luddite
Member
Fastbolt touched on historical mag limits. As I recall, when the 10 rd limit on new mags hit in '94, some hi cap pistol mags became somewhat scarce very quickly. With CCW increasing at the same time, larger caliber <10 rd carry guns came into vogue owing to the intersection of legal limitations and social trends regarding concealed carry. This being said, I don't see that the current pocket pistol market is being spurred on by the SAFE act or anything else except the rise of concealed carry and the desire by more people to be comfortable with a EDC weapon that they will, in fact, not mind carrying every day. Does it change public perception if everyone seems to be carrying a lower capacity pistol vs. a full size Glock as the norm? It might, I wouldn't entirely discount that--but I don't see that being a force powerful enough to drive mag capacity restrictions back onto the legislative table in most places.
At work most of us still qualify with the S&W 64, so I've become used to carrying that weapon off duty and have developed an affinity for it over the 1911a1 I had often carried previously. For my purposes, it fits the bill. Additionally my wife and kids can handle the weapon, something of a consideration. If I need more firepower, I might throw an underfolder AK on the car seat next to me. In the end we each have to decide what to carry based on why we carry, and know our limitations. We just need to ensure that no one is truly dictating those terms to us.
At work most of us still qualify with the S&W 64, so I've become used to carrying that weapon off duty and have developed an affinity for it over the 1911a1 I had often carried previously. For my purposes, it fits the bill. Additionally my wife and kids can handle the weapon, something of a consideration. If I need more firepower, I might throw an underfolder AK on the car seat next to me. In the end we each have to decide what to carry based on why we carry, and know our limitations. We just need to ensure that no one is truly dictating those terms to us.
Nom de Forum
Member
Which is why way too much time is spent worrying about marginal calibers and not enough time training to reduce marginal hits.
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jrmiddleton425
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This trend towards micro-size pocket guns started well before the SAFE Act. It started with the increase in "shall-issue" CCW.
As to how many rounds is enough...if you have 7 rounds and a reload, and 15 assailants, you don't have enough ammo. Six rounds, or for that matter, fifteen, may not stop one attacker.
Carry whatever you feel like carrying. The best you can do on any given day, is to have a gun you know you will carry, and that you know you can shoot. The rest is out of your hands.
As to how many rounds is enough...if you have 7 rounds and a reload, and 15 assailants, you don't have enough ammo. Six rounds, or for that matter, fifteen, may not stop one attacker.
Carry whatever you feel like carrying. The best you can do on any given day, is to have a gun you know you will carry, and that you know you can shoot. The rest is out of your hands.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
That's not unusual with 5-, 6-, and 10-shot firearms, either.
One of the key reasons for double-stack firearms is reserve capacity---the ability to fire a few rounds and still have a fully functional firearm. There is no penalty for leaving unfired rounds in the magazine, but circumstances occasionally enact a big penalty for not having unfired rounds in a magazine.
My concern is that gun designers who may otherwise try and get 7 or 8 rounds in a slim carry gun may instead just go right for 6 as it makes the gun NY Compliant.
If 6 wont do it I shouldn't carry
I have carried a .357 Mag SW revolver for the past 30 years. I have always felt adequately armed.
I have been to the range so many times and observed the large mag "spray and pray" type shooters. and whats interesting is that I have had a good look at some of the targets they have shot! Maybe a couple in the black and many not even on the target. Thats not stating that everyone shoots that way. But I am seeing it as a trend!
I shoot primarily target and a mixture of slow fire as well as combat timing. and usually print them in the black from 7 to 25 yards. I still feel that if I cant get out of a situation with 6 shots, I should have never allowed myself in to a situation where I need 14 shots ( and extra magazines) to save myself.
I admit that some of our cities are dangerous but the last I checked, the USA wasn't and isn't a war zone.
Heck I met a guy last week that was carrying 2, Yes I said TWO 9mm. When I asked why, I was told "It was better than having to stop and change mags"
Call me old fashioned and maybe I am, but I can shoot fast and accurate and will never feel the need for more than a 6 shot .357.
Yes I can imagine the responses this is going to get! but before you respond, please know that I have had to pull the trusty revolver out to save myself from a potential knife attack. And NO I didn't even have to fire! The site of that big hole in the barrel must have looked awful from the attackers standpoint and it stopped everything right there.
I have carried a .357 Mag SW revolver for the past 30 years. I have always felt adequately armed.
I have been to the range so many times and observed the large mag "spray and pray" type shooters. and whats interesting is that I have had a good look at some of the targets they have shot! Maybe a couple in the black and many not even on the target. Thats not stating that everyone shoots that way. But I am seeing it as a trend!
I shoot primarily target and a mixture of slow fire as well as combat timing. and usually print them in the black from 7 to 25 yards. I still feel that if I cant get out of a situation with 6 shots, I should have never allowed myself in to a situation where I need 14 shots ( and extra magazines) to save myself.
I admit that some of our cities are dangerous but the last I checked, the USA wasn't and isn't a war zone.
Heck I met a guy last week that was carrying 2, Yes I said TWO 9mm. When I asked why, I was told "It was better than having to stop and change mags"
Call me old fashioned and maybe I am, but I can shoot fast and accurate and will never feel the need for more than a 6 shot .357.
Yes I can imagine the responses this is going to get! but before you respond, please know that I have had to pull the trusty revolver out to save myself from a potential knife attack. And NO I didn't even have to fire! The site of that big hole in the barrel must have looked awful from the attackers standpoint and it stopped everything right there.
Posted by exbrit49:
How one may have "felt" really has little meaning.
Good, but how one shoots at the square range has limited meaning in defensive action.
How do you do when firing extremely rapidly at a realistic range of three to five yards, where "the black" doesn't mean anything?
Do you have an objective basis for what you "feel"?
If you ever need to draw your gun at all, you should not have allowed to get into such a situation. The question is one of what happens if you do.
Yeah like sitting and eating in a McDonalds is something I should have known to avoid. Silly me. How did I get myself into the place where I might be caught in a crossfire with 7 people firing away in my direction. I should have known not to eat that night. Well it was McDonalds but I was young and had a cast iron stomach at the time. But I learned my lesson. No more eating out for me.
I'm pretty sure none of us plan on getting ourselves in a situation where there might be a 7 gun crossfire coming at you. Anyone that thinks they could have foreseen that situation coming I'd like to know how so I can avoid it the next time (if there is a next time).
It would have taken either several very well placed rounds and a whole lot of luck or some suppressive fire to make them put their head down long enough for us to run to get us out of that potential situation even if I did have a high capacity pistol and a couple of mags with me. But one thing I believe to be true is that I couldn't have got us (me and the wife) out of that situation without a gun. Maybe a couple of shots does scare all of them off especially if I make clean hits. But we're talking half a large, crowded building away with all sorts of stuff blocking my view and my line of fire. Most likely a couple of shots would have been taken to be one of their crew shooting up the place and not someone shooting back. And the shots I would have taken would have been a good 15 yards away (they were behind the counter and I was at the front of the building) and they had the counter to hide behind along with all the cooking equipment and the condiment island. The idea I could have shot all of them with a couple of shots is just not in the realm of possibility.
A crossfire would have been very bad any way you look at it. But with a gun that held several bullets I would have had a chance anyway. Maybe a slim one but that's better than no chance at all. And if I truly did have to shoot it out with that bunch accurate fire and lots of it would have been my best ally. And again, the idea I could have kept myself out of the situation to begin with is just laughable.
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JohnBiltz
Member
My personal "feeling" is if 6 doesn't get it done its good to have more.
Sheepdog1968
Member
I'm of the opinion that the more capacity the better. Loui Awerbuck once outlined with me in a casual conversation that if you had two or three bad guys and had to shoot each a few times and toss in some misses that you could quickly go through ammo.
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Ash
Member
Kleen, do you have any objective basis for your ability to take down three men gunning for you with 15 rounds and a few reloads?
How about confidence? I am utterly confident that I can do what I need to do with 6 rounds of .357. If you lack that level of confidence, okay. If you feel the need to prepare for a horde of angry mongols, fine.
Otherwise, there is absolutely no need for a large body of pistols on the market.
How about confidence? I am utterly confident that I can do what I need to do with 6 rounds of .357. If you lack that level of confidence, okay. If you feel the need to prepare for a horde of angry mongols, fine.
Otherwise, there is absolutely no need for a large body of pistols on the market.
Deaf Smith
Member
While a 5 shooter is a might lean on ammo, there is a case where a woman cop in NYC challenged three bank robbers with a J .38 and captured all three (wounding one.)
They were all armed with handguns.
Deaf
They were all armed with handguns.
Deaf
Confidence is a poor substitute for plain ole hard facts my friend. I believe I can deal with almost all situations without resorting to the use of a gun at all. But that 1 small chance something else will jump off is best met with preparation.
A revolver with a speed loader or two isn't a bad choice for SD but it's just logic that says 17 rounds are better than 7. None of us are so perfect that we might not miss in a very high stress situation.
The thing is there just isn't any reason not to carry more rounds. Look at it this way. Is 2 rounds enough if I feel confident? What about 1? There are clear reasons why more is better.
With practice loading with a speed loader can happen very fast. But to just choose to not have any more rounds is just not a good choice IMO. 7 rounds will almost certainly get you out of all but the very worst situations. But those really bad situations do pop up. I've seen them happen and trust me, there are few worse feelings in the world than feeling totally vulnerable. It is not fun at all.
A .357 wouldn't have given me much of a chance that night in McDonalds. My 16+1 round XDm .40 may not have been enough either but it would have had a better chance of doing it. And I have to say in that situation confidence was the last thing on my mind. There's only what you have to do.
My role was to sit still and wait it out but if the hero had started a crossfire my role would have been to try to save my wife and myself. I would have had to try whether I felt confident or not.
I can hold my own with most people shooting a handgun but that was the last thing on my mind. It certainly could have helped if I had to shoot and I actually had a gun. But confidence was hardly the driving force for my actions. Survival was what was driving me.
I actually learned at a very young age (from my brother who always seemed to be more in touch with the real world than anyone I've ever met) that believing you can do something gets you a long way to doing it when the pressure is on. But with that much pressure on I would have had to do what I could and hope for the best.
I wasn't going to jump in with both feet and try to be superman. We weren't dealing with mice. We were dealing with real people with very real guns and I suspect the stuff my brother taught me would have came out but I sure didn't want to have to find out unless I had to.
Confidence is great to a point. But past that point it's strictly what needs to be done and what can be done. Without the amount of ammo needed fighting my way out of that bad situation could have been impossible despite my level of confidence. Besides, maye the bad guys had confidence too. Ever seen "Unforgiven"? That movie lays it out as cold as I've ever seen it. Eastwood's character had plenty of confidence but he had to take the pistol from the kid to get the job done. He couldn't go into the bar at Big Whiskey with just a shotgun.
The 6 or 7 round capacity is all to do with size. CCW is popular now so that is what gun makers will focus on. If I could have 19 9mm in my carry gun I would but Its just not comfortable for me. We are far from high capacity pistols becoming extinct or even endangered.
Ash
Member
"Confidence is a poor substitute for plain ole hard facts my friend."
So, Cee Zee, my friend, let's talk hard facts. I've been shot at but could not return fire. Zero rounds. Mom and granddad defended home and car with revolvers. Zero rounds fired. My great great grandfather defended self. One shot fired.
Those are cold hard facts. Other cold hard facts are that if you go up against several attackers, you're up the creek. Toast. Rounds you have are easily divided by the number of assailants. You think going John Wayne with guns blazing, perhaps two, with 30 round extended magazines will do the trick? Sorry, it won't. One man against seven. What would the police say if you decided to lay down suppressive fire at Micky D's? How might the DA respond? Or would you have manned up to them and gone all Neo on them?
In that vein, there are speed loaders.
So, let's just leave it that those of us with revolvers are just blindly foolish in our choices, yours are vastly better and if we would but follow your sage advice, we too could wade into a crowd of Agent Smiths with miniguns blazing. What would we know?
Even so, I am confident I can take care of what needs to be done with said revolver. I'm also smart enough to know when going into urban combat is not a good idea.
So, Cee Zee, my friend, let's talk hard facts. I've been shot at but could not return fire. Zero rounds. Mom and granddad defended home and car with revolvers. Zero rounds fired. My great great grandfather defended self. One shot fired.
Those are cold hard facts. Other cold hard facts are that if you go up against several attackers, you're up the creek. Toast. Rounds you have are easily divided by the number of assailants. You think going John Wayne with guns blazing, perhaps two, with 30 round extended magazines will do the trick? Sorry, it won't. One man against seven. What would the police say if you decided to lay down suppressive fire at Micky D's? How might the DA respond? Or would you have manned up to them and gone all Neo on them?
In that vein, there are speed loaders.
So, let's just leave it that those of us with revolvers are just blindly foolish in our choices, yours are vastly better and if we would but follow your sage advice, we too could wade into a crowd of Agent Smiths with miniguns blazing. What would we know?
Even so, I am confident I can take care of what needs to be done with said revolver. I'm also smart enough to know when going into urban combat is not a good idea.
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jimbo555
Member
And then you have the St. James church massacre where a guy armed with a chiefs special stopped terrorist attackers armed with assault rifles and hand grenades. If you want to be prepared for worst case scenarios you better travel with a squad armed with rifles in a armored vehicle. At some point individually you have to draw a line were you feel adequately armed.
I like to keep a small tank in my back pocket, just in case.
I am sorry, I was bad. I apologize.
Perhaps I don't worry adequately enough, but for decades I have usually had 6 or 7 rounds in a handgun I have carried, and simply didn't sweat it. I understand the desire for more, but I just don't worry about it.
Maybe you'll have to put that on my tombstone one day, but I am of the opinion that having a gun, being competent with it, and having the proper mindset to use it, is far more important than the number of rounds it has.
I do take a 19 round XDm in the vehicle with me often times these days, but rarely carry it. I'll be carrying a small caliber 6 shot this evening.
I am sorry, I was bad. I apologize.
Perhaps I don't worry adequately enough, but for decades I have usually had 6 or 7 rounds in a handgun I have carried, and simply didn't sweat it. I understand the desire for more, but I just don't worry about it.
Maybe you'll have to put that on my tombstone one day, but I am of the opinion that having a gun, being competent with it, and having the proper mindset to use it, is far more important than the number of rounds it has.
I do take a 19 round XDm in the vehicle with me often times these days, but rarely carry it. I'll be carrying a small caliber 6 shot this evening.
fastbolt
Member
I still suspect that far more people carrying handguns are probably "fooling themselves" by excessive attention to favorite makes/models, calibers and magazine capacities ... and ought to be spending more time on learning the laws involved in the use of firearms & deadly force, developing familiarity with their firearm(s), development & maintenance of a good skillset and developing a mindset that will get them safely through a horrific incident.
Guns, holsters and ammo can be bought in boxes. Not so, the rest of it.
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