Are we really winning?

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GAMEOVER44

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The 2A battle is very real as you all know. But, do you think were actually winning or losing the battle?

Sure.... we've won key cases but overall aside from the assault weapon ban expiration and no reinstatemnt ive seen no major wins really..

Its feels like were being given the illusion of freedom when in reality its full of restrictions that should not be there.

Shall not be infringed is clear enough for me.. how about you?
 
Carry permit states have increased significantly.

May issue states have converted to Shall issue states so that there are nearly no restrictive states.

Every federal attempt at legislation to restrict has gone down in flames.

Piers Morgan got the boot.

All that said, the Antis have shifted to a state by state attack where they focus effort on CO, then WA, then ?? and push anti legislation through the voting process by spending tons of money from out of state as well as in. They push enough dominos over and they hope they can get more to fall faster as well as roll back the losses on the fed side. Our job is to fight them at the state level since that's their shift in attention.

Yes, we've come a long way from the AWB days, but the Antis aren't asleep. They're just running a new game to recover momentum.

Heck, if Boxer AND Pilossi retire there's no Anti left other than Schumer with their potential for damage to the 2A.
 
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Well I like to see people fighting for whats right and ive seen more of it in the last year then the 5 before it. Dont know if its just me but thats how it seems. Id like to see less gun laws, fewer restrictions I do understand some need to be put in place or else it would be pure anarchy, correct? On that note.. I hope we win in the end. I feel we will its just.. a bummer and big let down to see this anti gunner crowd that is really just uneducated and they seem to be getting bigger too.

Were kinda at a crossroad come next election.
 
I don't think you've had the opportunity at the longer perspective many of us have had. We've had many wins over the years.

We get this sort of discussion every so often, usually started by someone "behind enemy lines" under the draconian thumb of very restrictive local laws, and we point out that this battle has been going on for decades and the Antis power just recently peaked and has been being eroded in fed government ever since the AWB. Of course the AWB kicked our butts awake and we started really fighting back and gaining support from the public.

That doesn't mean we should relax. Bloomberg and his allies are still intent on forcing their controls on all of us in spite of the continued drop in violent crime and the unprecedented increase in sales of sporting carbines and handguns their behavior has triggered in backlash. We need to be ever vigilant of the local and state level efforts since they take place with less fanfare, but we have to win those on the grassroots level using different tactics (just like the Antis are hoping to win one state at at time). We fought that battle state by state while the Antis thought they'd win Washington. Now we have more states that have carry permits than ever and that drives the Antis to try to reverse things state by state.
 
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I rarely relax, and we have MANY fights going on to protect our perfect constitution. I choose to fight for the 2A right the most because it is our teeth. However, I find freedom of speech and others just as important. Im an American first and foremost and ill do whatever it takes to preserve not only my rights, but yours. My family for GENERATIONS have taken oaths I tried to take the same one things just didnt pan out for me and the family military history ended with my father. Not because I wasn't willing but because of a factor that would be an entirely new discussion on its own. That being said. I cant imagine my son and daughter not growing up with these same very rights and UNTOUCHED constitution.

You know when I tried to join the marines at 19 the recruiter told me.. "listen, 10 years is going to fly by really fast in your life so do something with it now" and boy, was he ever so right on. Here I am at 31, a little over 10 years later and understand what he meant.

I try to get involved as much as possible at a grass roots level. I have a big heart and a lot of it and it may show in my posts from time to time.. but I fight the good fight and in the end just want whats right for not only my family and I but YOU ALL as well..
 
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No. Many court cases are not framed in terms of original intent. The current set of laws and cases are building a tangle of restrictions that effectively turn the right into a privilege.

Many states with the right to keep and bear arms have successfully converted this to a permit system. Any activity that requires a permit is not a right. Getting permit based concealed carry is not a win for the right to keep and bear arms.

DC and Federal territory continue to prohibit carry and severely restrict ownership. The current set of cases seem to be more interested in working with a permit system rather than establishing an unencumbered Second Amendment.

GCA 1968 needs to go away because it relies upon the abuse of the Commerce Clause to modify the 2A. NFA 1934...same thing. We're going to be stuck with most of this until the Commerce Clause abuse ends. We'll still have to deal with the states, but getting the CC abuses removed is a huge step.
 
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Are We Winning

At the NRA National Convention in Phila back in the 90's, I ran into the late Joe Foss. I believe he was a past president of the NRA. I asked him that question, "Are we winning"? He said we will have individual wins here and there, but overall, the future was not not good. He finished by looking at my 10 year old, and said, "He'll probably have to turn his [guns] in".
 
I live in illinois, we have to carry a FOID card issued by the state to posess guns and ammo. I got mine 42 years ago and have more gun rights now then back at the start. I carry now and my collection is substantial. Been a battle with wins and losses but we are fighting hard and constantly making progress, most recently through the courts.
 
"All that said, the Antis have shifted to a state by state attack where they focus effort on CO, then WA, then ??"

At least at the federal level, the strategy among a certain political contingent that shall remain nameless seems to be a waiting game of 5 to 10 years, at which point they expect demographic trends to automatically usher their long awaited permanent One Party Rule <chants "one party rule">. There is some argument this could be the case, and that states like Texas could soon start rapidly becoming unfriendly to gun owners and their affiliated political interests, but it could just as easily be sour grapes from those who have been humiliatingly stymied in recent years ("just you wait; in five years, when I'm all growed up, I'll knock your block off, just wait and see!").

My guess is federal action is over until another Great Leader arrives to make the pitch once more (could be Presidential or congressional, or even someone from the State-level that pitches nation wide, like Bloomberg when he was in office). There's just been too many embarrassing losses for rank and file to stick their necks out because something polls high for a week after a tragedy (unless that week is the one before an election). Unlike the anti's, the pro-gun side of things has been openly hostile to the idea of elevating ideologically-motivated leaders to positions of influence and prominence, so I suspect we will continue to fail to exploit favorable events and seize the initiative the way our opponents so often do. Trench warfare at its finest.

"Not to mention they slashed unemployment when the federal government was handing out stimulus money."
Another way of looking at this is that the right hand was seeking to staunch the bleeding of the one wound it could reach, while the left was busy cutting a second one wider...Totally off topic, but the stimulus was promoted and passed by the same people who destroyed the bond market with quantitative easing, and it ain't the folks who've been complaining about spending since before '10 (only after the '10 election is the right hand even making a pretense of reigning in expenditures)

TCB
 
AlFarkle said:
At the NRA National Convention in Phila back in the 90's, I ran into the late Joe Foss. I believe he was a past president of the NRA. I asked him that question, "Are we winning"? He said we will have individual wins here and there, but overall, the future was not good. He finished by looking at my 10 year old, and said, "He'll probably have to turn his [guns] in".
Click to expand...
Not that I directly agree with Foss (how old is your son now?) but children are where the real battles will be won or lost, not in legislatures. Every time I go to my local Izaak Walton branch I'm struck at the imbalance in age and gender of the members. THAT is the real issue. We have a huge generation of Caucasian men who believe in the 2A, but who will replace them when it comes to defending it? They are not the demographic future of this country, and the children being born now are much less likely to be raised to think of firearms as normal tools of living than children born 50-60 years ago.
The NRA's opposition to anti-gun legislation has so much force because of its huge and active membership ... but are they adding new members in the lower age cohorts as the main body ages? Do they have members in every region, or just concentrated in certain parts of the country? I would feel better if there WAS a concerted effort to spread the shooting sports and popularize them, but the opposite seems to be happening. In many threads right here on this board members have described how exclusionary and monolithic the culture seems at many gun ranges and clubs. I believe in the 2A, but it is only strong as the will to defend it. From what I've seen there are just not that many good ambassadors out there who can make a case good enough convince the average non-shooter to change his/her mind. All too often it seems like peoples' beliefs are pre-determined by the culture that bore them, and are not the result of any type of realistic discussion.
 
Sorry guys, I made a comment about a jew I just noticed early above that was meant for a post about jews how I put it here ill never know.

Illinois, California, and New York seem to be absolutely awful with their gun laws and Illinois needs to be sued for based off all the Chicago stuff ive read.

Michigan kinda sits in the middle of the pack I think we have some decent freedoms but not enough although our governor now, Rick Snyder, is pro 2A. So glad granholm left she was ruining our state. Were starting to swing from Democrat to Republican but the problem is with both parties as both have taken shifts to the left. Theres good and bad on each side it seems. Id like to say im Republican leaning, center right and for surely a conservative.

I hear about big wins only to next hear about the next assault on us. People need to be educated more on our constitution and they need to stop trying to go around it like snakes.

Some of these people really piss me off though. I just want to get a giant hand stamp and stamp everyone with shall not be infringed and let them walk around with it.

I even believe non violent felons who already paid their debts to society be able to own firearms. They cant even vote thats pretty damn sad.

Im perfectly legal but the day guns are outlawed will be the day I become an outlaw. I see more and more people my age waking up and taking action gun ownership is at an all time high.

Anyway the stuff going on in Illinois with CPLs etc needs to stop. More people in that state need to do more. Chicagos a gun grabber city in my books. Detroits not all that either yeah we have a Republican governor now (second term) but Detroits been a democratic stronghold for many years. Not that ALL Democrats are bad because there ARE pro 2a Dems just not too many it seems. Anyway im going to end my rant now.
 
Are we winning?

The answer to that is "yes, but..."

Take a look at gun laws back in the 1970's then compare them to todays. Great strides have been made.

However, the battle will always be "neverending", as are all battles for any liberty or right.
 
If we do not work to protect the entire constitution we will lose our rights to keep and bear arms. Now that politicians see how easy it is to restrict our rights at one level they will restrict our rights at any level when it deemed to be needed.

We have a new sheriff who is a Democrat. Yesterday I had to renew my Concealed carry permit. Our previous republican sheriff actually called your doctor to see if you are taking any mind altering medications.

I sat down a computer terminal in the lobby and filled out the required forms. The part about signing away your HIPPA rights was gone. When I got home I checked my email. There was an email from the sheriffs department saying I could pick up my new permit anytime during business hours today,

With the democratic sheriff what was a 3 day process is now done in a couple hours. We definitely have to look at the individual not just the R beside their name. The current sheriff was chief of police in a small town within the county.
 
I know one thing, Bloomberg needs to go. Id like for him to board a plane and never step foot in this country again.
 
Johnny I disagree to some extent about people taking mind altering drugs not being able to own firearms. If its FDA approved and your being treated I see NO REASON to strip someones rights.

When it comes down to it people are the ones who are killing people they'll do so with a knife. Its NOT the medication and the people who think they are pro 2A who stand by the medication thing are not really pro 2A. Now being on illegal drugs like crack/cocaine could be and is different.

Sorry but an anti depressant isn't going to go make you take out your firearm and kill someone.

There's a mental health issue alright but its not with the people who are on meds (most of them). Its the ones who choose to murder and they'd do it with an axe if it weren't a gun.


I take medication, BLODD PRESSURE medication 3 of them to be exact. I dont want to be told oh your blood pressures too high we have to take your firearms away. GOOD LUCK!


This medication thing is going to be a golden key for the gun grabbers. The number of people on medication in this country is astoundingly high and they'll use it to theyre advantage to take your rights. Once you bar people on medication from owning firearms itll open the door for more crazy laws.

This stuff thats going on is insanity and MUST be stopped.


On an end note and more positive one too, congrats on your successful renewal. Here in Michigan we call our carry permits CPL's.
 
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At the NRA National Convention in Phila back in the 90's, I ran into the late Joe Foss. I believe he was a past president of the NRA. I asked him that question, "Are we winning"? He said we will have individual wins here and there, but overall, the future was not not good. He finished by looking at my 10 year old, and said, "He'll probably have to turn his [guns] in".
Click to expand...

Yup, the 1990s was a dark time. Things looked bleak. That's really when I start counting the birth of "Gun Culture 2.0." The real turning of the tide.

And you know what the biggest boon has been? At the start of 1993 there were about 50 web servers in the world. By the end of it there were over 500. Now there's just about A BILLION. Communication, encouragement, reinforcement, and coordination in the ultimate "grass roots" kind of way, among this wide-spread bunch of motivated but independent and individualist bunch of gun rights advocates and enthusiasts who probably wouldn't really have come together to be effective any other way.

The list of our WINS since the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 reads like a wish list that a gun owner in the 1970s and '80s wouldn't have dreamed possible.
 
Sam funny you mentioned servers. Im a certified IT Tech. Went to school for it.

Computer tech is the fastest growing tech out there. They are making huge advancements every single day. Your brand new top of the line desktop you bought today will be mediocre in just one year.
 
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Oh, this is something I firmly believe. When the guys in the statehouses and in D.C. were "WAAAY over there" a long way from where Joe and Tom Gun Owner were at, and when organization and motivation of gun owners happened by the NRA sending out a letter or publishing a magazine article (probably two months too late), and when coordination face-to-face happened when a handful of gunnies ended up chatting across the gun store counter, or IF they happened to sit for a spell out at their gun club clubhouse once in a while -- a LOT of things could be done TO us and we really couldn't do a whole lot about it. The big party political machine would call up and poke us every few years to make sure we were still voting them into office, instead of the dreaded other guy's party, but we had no real collective voice or power.

Then there were bulletin boards and usegroups and maillists and web pages and chat rooms and forums and then facebook and reddit and YouTube and... and all of a sudden if a politician sneezes and it SOUNDS like the phrase "gun control" 5 minutes later about a million gun nuts are posting about it and sending letters and calling their representatives. If one cop roughs up a gun-carrying guy in Podunk, Nebraska, his face and badge number are shown in a video of him acting like an ass and the next month he's on suspension, facing a lucrative new career flipping burgers. If a town council in Arkansas votes to ban guns in the local park, the next month there are 200 irate gun owners packing the hall, with their lawyers. Oh, my, how times have changed.

(And the real proof of the pudding here is the anti-gun side has been able to muster practically NOTHING in response. Handgun Control Inc., the "Brady Bunch" has nearly been out of business, and every attempt to rally up anti-gunners and organize against us has been crushed by the weight of our collective momentum.)

I think the gun culture is probably THE preeminent example of a group that organically adopted the explosion of the information/communication age and harnessed it to achieve something for the good of all. Every cause out there uses the web, of course, but I'd be willing to bet money on the American gun/RKBA enthusiast culture as the one segment of society that has made the biggest real changes to their world using communication technology in the formative first decades of the 'web.


(Yeah, everyone talks about the Arab Spring and social media? Hell, we were there FIRST! :D)
 
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Gun control is keeping your finger off the trigger until ready.

For you facebookers out there theres a group called USMC (Uncle Sams Misguided Children), not to advertise but they fully support the 2A and promote it I recommend a like to review important news they post. If this is violating any rules please remove this post. Anyways theyve been taken down by facebook twice already but have been up and running steady with two private groups anyones welcome to join going on. They even have a web/radio show in the morning. Mostly US military expierenced members.

Only mentioned it because facebook was brought up.
 
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The smart people in CT, NY, CO, WA, CA don't think we are winning. There are a vast numbers of people who are not only willing to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates, they will vote for ANY gun control measure with the words "safety" and "lower crime" - and yes in some states it's easily 60%+ of the population. Any state that can get a ballot initiative listed is doomed when the national/rich guy money walks in the room. The worst thing is you can't depend on the NRA to help. Oh they will use some of the right words. They will spend a little money. But TV and radio adds directly refuting the lies of the anti-gun side? No they won't do it. And there will only be lame excuses at best.

People in good states such as AZ, most of the south and others they really are nicely insulated because, agreed, on the Fed side other than sneaky presidential decree things like Operation Choke Point, not much going on. Mark my words, if we don't straighten up and come up with a plan for fighting this attack state by state, then we are indeed doomed.
 
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The fear of "terrorism" is going to be exploited by the anti-gun gang, as is the fear of "extremist protestors" (blacks). Maryland's new gun control laws are blatantly racist, and were subtly promoted by hints of black "unrest" (this was before Ferguson). Now, we are going to see editorials about how easy it is for terrorists to buy evil assault weapons, handguns and other "weapons of war" at gun shows and gun stores. No one will dare say "islamic terrorism", a term banned by our Moslem President, but the meaning will be clear.

Jim
 
What hurt us in WA was introducing a pro gun bill at the same time. By introducing the pro gun bill they made the ballot confusing. I read quite a bit of discussion about the two bills and I still cannot tell which is which. There are many voters who were confused as well. The ballot didn't have an explanation of the two bills. I am certain many voters walked into the voting booth with the intention of voting pro gun and voted for the anti gun bill.

If you don't believe me next time you are waiting in line to vote ask your fellow voters a few pertinent questions about the candidates or mention it was difficult to find out anything about the candidates. You will quickly see that they are uninformed and did no research at all. Most people are motivated to go to the polls by one or two candidates.
 
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