Are you a marksman or a paper hole puncher?

[1911Tuner]

Two-Way

Lets be glad that most of us don't have to shoot on a two way range or no longer have a need to.

Amen.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

OK, not only does that make sense, it sounds like a good exercise. Can I do it? I dunno, I haven't tried it (in a long time anyway, I'm pushing 60). I definitely could do it with some practice, but I'd be slow. It sounds like a lot of work.

D**n right....I'm usually humiliated by the experience. But it spurs me on....

And that's how I became the wonder of the shooting world that I am today....
(just joking...)

 

[strangeone]

Shotgunin off the old benchrest

Shootin the ol 12 gauge stuffed with 3 1/2" slugs off the benchrest is a pretty good way to feel a little bit more of that power your payin extra for in those magnum loads Out in the wide open spaces of Wyoming we do have ranges where you could pop your antelope right off your shootin bench if your so inclined. In season of coarse!

 

[JohnBT]

"Who was it that said that a wise man seeks enlightenment, while the fool seeks only entertainment"

I don't know. Who? You seem to have all the answers.

John

 

[bogie]

Heh...

What's bone and muscle, but another form of benchrest?

I'm almost tempted to drag my M1 out... but it just isn't all that interesting... Now, my Panda and Grizzly IIs are definitely interesting. And I've got a couple of Savages which are moderately interesting. I've also got a mousegun I haven't really wrung out. Or I could just go ahead and shoot my skinny barrel Bushie, but it'll only group about 3/4" or so...

If your rifle won't shoot up to your skills, you need a better rifle.

 

[rangerruck]

i shoot every weekend on the bench. sometimes in sun sometimes in shade, sometimes howling wind , havin to trade shots with guys sitting on attached becnhes next to me , shooting a 500 gibbs, or plopping ak shells at me from my left. Sometimes it is freezing, and your ears and fingers want to fall off. All i ever use is sandbags, of various condition. rains sometimes, sometimes it is blazing hot and humid , here in Houston ya know, the benches are solid concrete, or old wood splintered. and your allwasy hunched over way too low. when it is hot , the sweat pours down your face even though you got a stupid rag wwrapped around your head. so i disagree with the first dude.

 

[el44vaquero]

I'm forced to be a marksman, but prefer to be a paper puncher.

 

[Ankeny]

Your statement certainly demonstrates no point whatsover, nor any insight supporting your view. As a previous poster with insight quoted, it (group size from a bench) may be interesting, but irrelevent.

My point is, I applaud you for attempting to cure your ignorance through lively debate.

 

[Igloodude]

Absolutely correct! And I acknowledge that, and I believe I do so earlier in this thread...but the point is to differentiate shooting that encourages skill and that which is just entertainment....

But virtually all shooting encourages skill (unless you're not shooting at a target), and virtually all shooting is just entertainment (unless you're shooting at a target that, left unhit, will immediately harm you or leave you risking starvation).

If you're seeking to draw a mark on the sliding scale (marked on the one side by benchresters and Olympic competitors, and on the other side by shooters engaging other armed human beings) and claim that everything to the left of the mark is not contributing to practical marksmanship, then carry on, but don't expect general agreement.

 

[f4t9r]

We have a match! I want in. You shoot from standard prone...I'll shoot from Jackass Sitting. 10 rounds/200 yards/aperture sights/.308s or better to open!

Seriously...I think an informal match with interested members involved would be great. I can arrange the 200-yard range if ya'll can get here. BYOBarbecue.

That would be neat and we would sure have something to talk about afterwards.

and Tuner while were there I want you to look at my 1911 !!!

 

[Rockrivr1]

This thread reminds me of a dream I had a few years ago. I actually posted it on this site at the time. The dream was basically this. I was in a house in my dream, which I guess was mine. I was on the first floor sitting on a coach with my fiance when I heard some screaming from outside. I look out the window and down the road about 50-75 yards away and see one of my neighbors waving a gun around. He has his wife by the hair and he has her on her knees in the driveway. He's basically behind her holder her down and I can tell she's frantic about something and he's obviously going nuts as well.

I grab my M1A that for some reason was also on the first floor and a loaded mag. I run outside through my front door, lock and load my M1A and quickly get prone to take aim on my nieghbor. At the same time I'm taking aim on him, he yells that she's dead and points the handgun at her head. I have to take a fast shot and I pull the trigger. And miss!!!!! The bullet hits the garage door behind my neighbor a second before he pulls the trigger and kills his wife. Before I get a second shot he runs into the house and I wake up.

Yeah, pretty screwed up dream. Anyway, it got me thinking on how the hell I could miss. I basically think it's because I was rushed and outside my element in regards to what I do each time I pull the trigger when on the range. There I have plenty of time to take aim and punch a hole in a non-moving target. Even when I shoot Highpower or USPSA, there are parameters that are constant. Plus there's no reprocussions from missing.

Since that dream I try to spend a little time each time I'm at the range taking shots in a hurry up fashion (If you know what I mean) I also hang some reactive targets, like a Coke can hanging from a string. It's always moving and very hard to hit. I miss it more often then not, but since I've been practicing I'm getting better. Not sure if that makes me a marksman or not. Hopefully I won't miss an important shot like the one in my dream if I'm ever in that situation though.

 

[Igloodude]

I grab my M1A that for some reason was also on the first floor and a loaded mag. I run outside through my front door, lock and load my M1A and quickly get prone to take aim on my nieghbor. At the same time I'm taking aim on him, he yells that she's dead and points the handgun at her head. I have to take a fast shot and I pull the trigger. And miss!!!!!

And not to threadjack, but while one lesson-learned might be to practice more practical and snap-shooting, another would be tactics: next time the dream rolls around, either open your window slightly and use the window sill as a bench, or go out your back door/side door whatever, go prone on the ground near shrubbery or just peeking around the corner - either way, don't announce your presence and status, and thus take a carefully aimed shot as opposed to provoking your neighbor's shot just by running out the door with a rifle.

 

[MD_Willington]

Paper hole puncher... but I've noticed milk jugs are a little uneasy around me sometimes...

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Once a rifle is sighted in, I never return to the bench. I practice field position shooting only. Lot's of people enjoy bench shooting as a sport though, and I do not fault that. To me, though, a bench is where you sight in, and that's it. My purpose at the range is practical skill development, whether I'm shooting handguns or rifles.

 

[C-grunt]

Will, the reason a lot of people are getting mad here is that you are making a general statement that anyone who shoots off a bench is a bad marksman. Remember, dont judge a book by its cover. You dont know those people, their skills, or their background. The best marksman I have ever met, shot off the bench regularly and could hit anything he aimed at no matter what the conditions.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

IMHO Benchrest shooting has it's purposes. To check the Accuracy of a gun after stoning a trigger assy, smoothing a slide or replacing a bushing. Shooting freehand is a skill in it's own right that should be developed and should never be ignored by overuse of benchrest shooting. You should become profficient in shooting both handed, single handed dominant and single handed nondominant (weak handed). Use Vertical supports such as posts and doorways.
There are all types of shooting for all types of reasons really so develop a list of skills instead of relying on a few you favor.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Wllm. Legrand
As usual sir your post is stirring people up quite a bit. Which is a good thing. I think I know where you are coming from.

I don't claim to be a sniper but I do notice that I shoot better than many of the people I have shot with. However that is probably because I only ever shot with the "regular" folks until I went to Colorado. where I began High power shooting. That is where I really started to learn to shoot, and I became concerned with marksmanship, not just accuracy. I am still learning marksmanship and it has become my ultimate goal in shooting, I only competed with the M1 and M1A Both excellent rifles. I have only attended 1 over the course NRA highpower shooting match, 1 John C. Garand Match and one NRA Long range shoot. I am at this point a poor shooter, but still a beginer and I can't wait to shoot more. I moved back to Maine where its hard to find a range over 100 yards though there are a few clubs that shoot high power here. I plan on Joining a club as soon as I can. As little as I have shot competively I have only got better. Everytime I went to a shoot I shot better and it got easier and more familiar. But that is the limit of my competitive shooting.


As far as practical rifles shooting is concerned, I have done alot of plinking at various ranges, at various targets and from different field positions. This is how I learned to shoot my AK wich I shoot best with (excluding the M1 or M1A) Im sure people will eschew this but in the field I have never had a problem with marksmanship with the AK within its own range. I have shot out to 300 yards with the rifle and was able to hit chest sized targets from any field postion. I shoot about a 4 inch group with an AK at 100 yards using wolf ammuntion. I do not shoot from a bench unless its to sight in a rifle and even then I use prone more often. Perhaps shooting the AK well with confidence wouldn't impress many people and its not ment too but I know I can count on it, It will do its job and I can do mine with it. But I do see its short comings when it comes to accuracy. I have several AK's and SKS's and they are all very reliable rifles, learning to shoot them is easy, being truely proficient with them is difficult. I always thought I was a bad shot until I shot more accurate rifles, or at least rifles with more accuracy potential and capability. I enjoy all forms of shooting and I think everyone should do what they like, personally I think becoming the most proficient you can with your rifles is the highest form of the shooting arts.

I love my Combloc guns but my next rifle will be an M1A.
Brother in Arms

 

[Northwet]

I am a marksman

Or at least my Army expert rifle and grenade medals say so. Handgun? Still a lot of potential to be realized.
North"wet"

 

[YodaVader]

One of the great things about our sport is that it encompasses such a wide range of possible activities.

Each of us is free to pick and choose our favorite activities.

IMHO, there is no one "true goal" in the shooting sports as your post states. It may be YOUR true goal, but that is not binding on any of the rest of us.

Pursue your goal, enjoy it, and let the rest of us do our thing.

Pretty much sums it up. Apprently there are those who feel that if you do not subscribe to their shooting philosophy or beliefs then you are somehow missing out on something. It seems some are actually disturbed when your shooting methods differ from theirs.

Talk to someone like Ted Kennedy - I doubt he gives a damn whether you are Camp Perry National Champ , the plinker of coffee cans in the back yard , or even a benchrest shooter - all of you would be the same in his view - a gun owners.

Just be glad there are others who still love shooting even if you deem their shooting methods inferior to your own.

 

[browningguy]

Shooting from a bench is not useless; a bench can be useful for sighting in a weapon, though even the bench itself introduces a variable that may throw off your shooting in the field (as can time of day and lighting for shooting with iron or aperature sights). I only posit that shooting from a bench does little to develop skills of practical markmanship.

I had assumed that most people who would choose to spend a considerable amount of time with firearms would have acquiring a high degree of skill in their use a priority. But, as in the world of politics amongst the gun culture, making general assumptions almost guarrantees error.

Mea culpa.

I should say I haven't read all the posts in this thread, just a couple of pages, and the quote above is one I thought worthy of discussing.

I've found that most people that can't shoot from a bench are equally bad in the field. I do a lot of shooting from the bench, it's an excellent way to learn, and practice control of, breathing and trigger pull. I almost never practice with the 458 Win from a bench though, that's a good way to get a sore shoulder. I also shoot at 50 and 100 yards, standing, sitting, kneeling, very rarely prone, and sitting at the bench a lot.

If you don't believe shooting tiny groups shows a high degree of skill then you simply don't know what you are talking about. Back in the 70's I had the pleasure to shoot with several Marine snipers, I never saw one of them take an offhand shot. They could always find a way to rest, or support the rifle before making a perfect trigger squeeze. There are areas of the country where you need to take offhand shots at game, and especially then you need to have good trigger and breath control. No better way to practice that then shooting the smallest groups your gun can shoot from a bench.

 

[Ankeny]

Folks who have not yet realized the benefits of using a bench as a training tool would be well served to read the writings of G. David Tubb on the topic for rifle applications, and/or read Brian Enos' writings for handgun shooting applications (just for starters). I find it interesting that some of the best "marksmen" in the world relied on that dreaded bench for certain aspects of their development while enroute to national championships.

FWIW, I don't use a bench at all with a handgun, even for sighting in purposes, but I understand the value for those who can benefit from shooting from the bench. I still shoot from the bench a lot with a rifle for load development, verification of drop charts, verification of BCs, wind drift, and so on. If I can't do the dope and make the shot from a bench, I don't have much chance of doing it from sticks or proned out.

 

[bogie]

Sarge, my dang knees hurt... Ain't gonna crawl around on the ground for fun...

Heck, I'll shoot with you for money tho (grin)... I've even got a Garand that ain't bad - but I'd rather shoot a Panda or a Grizzly, both of which are in Six stocks with Jewell triggers...

BTW, got "expert" in grenade, but only "marksman" in rifle in basic training... Why? My group's firing point for the big test was severely overgrown, and everyone in my group flunked. Couldn't see the dang pop up targets. Finally, we bitched enough, and the DI actually looked at the numbers, and looked at us, and figured "hey, some of these guys were doing pretty darn well in practice," and jumped down in the hole himself, and told the range master to set him up. He flunked. So we got the reward of spending a coupla hours with swingblades making sure we could see stuff... couldn't just move us to a different point. Gotta love the Army... And since we didn't qualify on the first round, they just gave us the "marksman" pins... Sigh...

 

[bogie]

Oh yeah... On the dream... Now I wasn't there, but my first reaction to seeing something nasty going on outside a window wouldn't be to grab a battle rifle and run outside and try to shoot while standing on my two hind legs... I'd have a jacket or a pillow or some laundry on the window sill for an improvised rest, and wouldn't have a problem.