Are you a marksman or a paper hole puncher?

[1911Tuner]

re:

Okay. Where do you live.

I'll shoot offhand, at a measured 100 yards.

$100 for a 5 shot group?

We have a match! I want in. You shoot from standard prone...I'll shoot from Jackass Sitting. 10 rounds/200 yards/aperture sights/.308s or better to open!

Seriously...I think an informal match with interested members involved would be great. I can arrange the 200-yard range if ya'll can get here. BYOBarbecue.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

We have a match! I want in. You shoot from standard prone...I'll shoot from Jackass Sitting. 10 rounds/200 yards/aperture sights/.308s or better to open!

Seriously...I think an informal match with interested members involved would be great. I can arrange the 200-yard range if ya'll can get here. BYOBarbecue.

You may have something there...

I'm lucky enough to be a member of a private club with a 500 meter range. A shoot or a impromtu match might be a good way to 1) learn, or 2) teach, or 3) have an enjoyable experience..(3 of the 4 reason of which I must have to do anything)....

Northern Colorado here...

 

[bogie]

Well, as one of those benchresters, I'm a little tired of hearing how those critters who crawl upon the earth are superior... Just cuz I'm old and fat doesn't mean I can't do that too... I just don't like to...

Howzabout .243 bore as the lower limit?

 

[Ankeny]

My point in this thread is expose for discussion the folly of thinking that group size, done from a bench, without pressure actually MEANS something. Maybe it does...but I don't see the point.

Keep listening and learning. Gain some more experience and knowledge, and maybe someday you might see the point.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Keep listening and learning. Gain some more experience and knowledge, and maybe someday you might see the point.

Your statement certainly demonstrates no point whatsover, nor any insight supporting your view. As a previous poster with insight quoted, it (group size from a bench) may be interesting, but irrelevent.

 

[1911Tuner]

Stool Shooters

Just for the record...Benchrest shooters don't pretend that their sport is real-world, combat, ninja, sniper, kill the enemy, or whatever...but don't think for one minute that they can't shoot. They can dope the wind even without flags, and some of the most unbelieveable shots that I've seen made on groundhogs
have come from benchresters who take what they know to the field...along with some pretty amazing rifles built specifically for the task.

And yes...Even a shot taken in the field should be rested or supported on something if at all possible. The object of pulling the trigger is hitting the target. Anything that expedites that end is fair play...especially if the target is a game animal.

 

[Rambosky]

I like all aspects. From precision rifle matches to 3 gun tac matches.... variety is the spice of life.

 

[R.H. Lee]

As for the last, "shoot up to his rifle", this exposes the issue. It does not MATTER what you can do from the bench, except to delude yourself as to your own competency, or to utilize or evalutate the weapon as a mechanical device, absent most of the variables that your actual USE puts into the equation. Can you do the same in field positions, under pressure of time, under the pressure of the hunt, at unknown distances, the "1 second" of a degree that so many of you claim your rifle is capable? I doubt it.

My point in this thread is expose for discussion the folly of thinking that group size, done from a bench, without pressure actually MEANS something. Maybe it does...but I don't see the point.

All of that may be fun as a Walter Mitty daydream, but unless you actually do it, it's just academic. How many people do you know who regularly engage in this 'Army of One' Mad Max exercise you describe? Only people I know who even come close are active duty military. The rest of us will have to console ourselves with paperpunching, I guess.

 

[cracked butt]

And yes...Even a shot taken in the field should be rested or supported on something if at all possible. The object of pulling the trigger is hitting the target. Anything that expedites that end is fair play...especially if the target is a game animal.
__________________

So you are saying that in the field a true marksman will use whatever necessary to steady a rifle? Blasphemy

I guess I was always taught that:
You don't shoot standing if you can kneel
You don't shoot kneeling if you can sit
Having a tree or a bench or a bipod to rest a rifle on is superior to sitting.

I wouldn't want to take a $100 bet against an experienced benchrester from any position.

 

[1911Tuner]

Blasphemy

So you are saying that in the field a true marksman will use whatever necessary to steady a rifle? Blasphemy

Forgive me, for I have sinned...and I'll do it again if I gotta make the shot count.

RH Lee...Ever hear of a game called "Rattle Battle"? It's a real hoot.

 

[R.W.Dale]

SO since if benchresting is a useless exercise. I would like to hear about all of the "REAL" life uses and applications for all of the tacticool ninja fire drill styles of training.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

All of that may be fun as a Walter Mitty daydream, but unless you actually do it, it's just academic. How many people do you know who regularly engage in this 'Army of One' Mad Max exercise you describe? Only people I know who even come close are active duty military. The rest of us will have to console ourselves with paperpunching, I guess.

The above post is absurd. Where do you get the "Walter Mitty" daydream B.S., except as an insult. And the "Army of One" Mad Max perjorative is equally absurd, as well as juvenile.

Grow up.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

SO since if benchresting is a useless exercise. I would like to hear about all of the "REAL" life uses and applications for all of the tacticool ninja fire drill styles of training.

Another absurdity from the lumpen who don't understand the point of the exercise.

Some good posts here, but also many who I bet probably drive huge trucks to compensate, just as I believe they "..protesth too much...".

 

[R.W.Dale]

Another absurdity from the lumpen who don't understand the point of the exercise.

Some good posts here, but also many who I bet probably drive huge trucks to compensate, just as I believe they "..protesth too much...".

Why I don't pretend to be a warrior of any sort and yet I've used a rifle in the field to take game hunderds of times, But I guess I'm a bad shot just cause some forum KOMMANDO want's to try to proove some useless point just to give himself a huge pat on the back

 

[R.H. Lee]

OK Wllm, lemme re-phrase the question, so as not to bruise your sensibilities. You said

As for the last, "shoot up to his rifle", this exposes the issue. It does not MATTER what you can do from the bench, except to delude yourself as to your own competency, or to utilize or evalutate the weapon as a mechanical device, absent most of the variables that your actual USE puts into the equation. Can you do the same in field positions, under pressure of time, under the pressure of the hunt, at unknown distances, the "1 second" of a degree that so many of you claim your rifle is capable? I doubt it.

Just how do you do this and under what circumstances? I really am trying to understand wth you're talking about.............

Never heard of 'Battle Rattle', but I googled it. You bad.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hold!

Time out, Gents. This one is getting close to the line on some points. Let us remember that the way of The High Road is to attack the argument...not the man presenting the argument.

Just a friendly reminder. We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

R H Lee...You REALLY oughta try Rattle Battle. Plugs AND muffs strongly suggested.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

OK Wllm, lemme re-phrase the question, so as not to bruise you sensibilities. You said Just how do you do this and under what circumstances? I really am trying to understand wth you're talking about.............

Fair enough.

First, let's define our terms. To "shoot up to your rifle" is not that hard to define. The (master) marksman can shoot, upon demand, to the accuracy of the rifle (as demonstrated from a BENCH REST, or a pistol from a Ransam (sp?) rest, at unknown (but estimated) ranges, under the pressure of TIME and the hunt (try having a shooting partner scream into your ear while shooting, or perhaps you can run out to 200 yards and back, THEN commence to shoot in order to simulate physical stress that is almost ALWAYS in the hunt/field.)

You are allowed one (1) shot. Also, you must quickly make use of an improvised field position; prone would do (it is the steadiest), improvised rest, jackass sitting, kneeling, standing or off-hand, etc.

According to Cooper, if you can get all of your shots within 2 inches of aim at 100 yards, UNDER ALL CONDITIONS AND POSITIONS, you're a pretty GD good marksman. Sitting on your fat behind (I'm using "your" in the universal sense here), with a varmint rest, AIN'T demonstrating marksmanship.

I use the "1 second of arc" because so many people are concerned with accuracy they probably can't USE. Especially handgun people, and even more so, handgun articles in gun fishwraps. As if 1" difference at 25 yards means a GD thing.....

Make sense, eh?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Did it ever occour to you that the people at the range bench shooting just might be enjoying themselves, and that they may be perfectally confident in their ability to shoot well enough to be confident in their abilities to shoot what they need to shoot

To use an analogy
Just because we can drive a car doesn't mean we have to go to the track and train to be a racecar driver. Now does it?

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

It seems I'm quoting a lot of Cooper here, but I could just as well be quoting the thoughts of Van Zwoll or O'Conner, or Mark Spicer, for that matter...

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Did it ever occour to you that the people at the range bench shooting just might be enjoying themselves, and that they may be perfectally confident in their ability to shoot well enough to be confident in their abilities to shoot what they need to shoot

To use an analogy
Just because we can drive a car doesn't mean we have to go to the track and train to be a racecar driver. Now does it?

Absolutely correct! And I acknowledge that, and I believe I do so earlier in this thread...but the point is to differentiate shooting that encourages skill and that which is just entertainment....

Who was it that said that a wise man seeks enlightenment, while the fool seeks only entertainment...tangential, but there is something to it....

 

[R.W.Dale]

It seems I'm quoting a lot of Cooper here, but I could just as well be quoting the thoughts of Van Zwoll or O'Conner, or Mark Spicer, for that matter...

Mabye you should form some of your own opinions and experiances instead of parroting someone elses. I for one could care less what Cooper deems proper and holy

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Mabye you should form some of your own opinions and experiances instead of parroting someone elses. I for one could care less what Cooper deems proper and holy

I guess I'd better relax my grip around your throat, as I am evidently forcing you to read and post here...

 

[Rambosky]

Lets be glad that most of us don't have to shoot on a two way range or no longer have a need to.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You are allowed one (1) shot. Also, you must quickly make use of an improvised field position; prone would do (it is the steadiest), improvised rest, jackass sitting, kneeling, standing or off-hand, etc.

According to Cooper, if you can get all of your shots within 2 inches of aim at 100 yards, UNDER ALL CONDITIONS AND POSITIONS, you're a pretty GD good marksman.

OK, not only does that make sense, it sounds like a good exercise. Can I do it? I dunno, I haven't tried it (in a long time anyway, I'm pushing 60). I definitely could do it with some practice, but I'd be slow. It sounds like a lot of work.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Mabye you should form some of your own opinions and experiances instead of parroting someone elses. I for one could care less what Cooper deems proper and holy

A student asked Ayn Rand about the same thing, as to whether or not to hold as truth, strongly, the opinions of others. The issue was whether or not such belief was "second hand" thinking...She replied that it matters not who the originator of truth is, if it bears scrutiny and holds water, then by all means accept wisdom as wisdom.

Listen to the moderators...and lighten up.