Are you a marksman or a paper hole puncher?

[Wllm. Legrand]

I prefer not to belittle others' shooting activities for the sake of dogmatic sanctimony and self-righteousness.

The above sentence above is itself replete with self-righeousness....

My...aren't we sensitive...

 

[Ian]

I never have had much interest in bench shooting. I'll use a bench to zero a firearm, but that's all. I just don't see the challenge in using a bench.

Of course, the range I use doesn't have benches, so that may be a factor.

 

[Infidel]

Yep, I'm sensitive. I listen carefully, I watch carefully, and I learn from almost everyone that I meet. The biggest exceptions, and among my biggest dislikes, are stuffed shirts with the attitude that they are in possession of Revealed Truth, that they know the one and only True Way, that everything else is "useless", and "not Real whatever-the-subject". That attitude is one of the few truly useless things that I have found.

 

[bogie]

Well, I'm into competitive benchrest. The top of the pinnacle of absolute rifle accuracy.

I -really- don't like crawling around on the ground, and all that stuff. Doesn't mean I can't do it - means I don't like it.

It gets damn cold sitting at a concrete bench in 25 degree weather with a 15mph crosswind.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Personally, I don't do much walking field hunting myself. Nor do I carry. Should I not be shooting at all then? (Considering you think shooting off of a bench is useless.)
.

It is interesting those responses that seem intentionally to misunderstand. To cite the obvious and make distinctions bothers some people. Well, such is human nature.

Shooting from a bench is not useless; a bench can be useful for sighting in a weapon, though even the bench itself introduces a variable that may throw off your shooting in the field (as can time of day and lighting for shooting with iron or aperature sights). I only posit that shooting from a bench does little to develop skills of practical markmanship.

I had assumed that most people who would choose to spend a considerable amount of time with firearms would have acquiring a high degree of skill in their use a priority. But, as in the world of politics amongst the gun culture, making general assumptions almost guarrantees error.

Mea culpa.

 

[WayneConrad]

I like to sample everything at the buffet. I do admire rifleman especially, though. In my dreams, I may some day be a qualified rifleman. I'm getting kinda old for learning new tricks, but there aren't many other tricks as fun as shooting.

For fun, do what's fun! For hunting and war, it seems to me that being effective in field positions is what one would want to practice. In my vain attempt to become a rifleman, I zero my rifle from field positions. It doesn't make me a rifleman, but at least I look cool

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Yep, I'm sensitive. I listen carefully, I watch carefully, and I learn from almost everyone that I meet. The biggest exceptions, and among my biggest dislikes, are stuffed shirts with the attitude that they are in possession of Revealed Truth, that they know the one and only True Way, that everything else is "useless", and "not Real whatever-the-subject". That attitude is one of the few truly useless things that I have found.

You're really quite emotional, aren't you?

Have you always been so, or did it come on you by degrees?

 

[Infidel]

No, I'm not particularly emotional. Just intelligent. And not particularly surprised at the attempts to belittle and demean. It seems to be a pattern.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

I like to sample everything at the buffet. I do admire rifleman especially, though. In my dreams, I may some day be a qualified rifleman. I'm getting kinda old for learning new tricks, but there aren't many other tricks as fun as shooting.

No such thing as too old...I was 35 before I even owned a centerfire rifle. Four years later I won my first service rifle match.

Go for it.

 

[usp9]

I'm a Marks-Puncher

I spend most of my ammo trying to be proficient in real world defensive shooting with my carry weapons. After killing paper bad guys, I'll spend about 10% of my ammo on slow fire target shooting at target ranges up to 25 yards, just to see if I can still hit what I point at.

 

[C-grunt]

Stating that shooting from a bench has no effect for practical senario accuracy is wrong. It might not help you, but it could help a lot of others. Before I joined the Army all I did was bench rifle shooting and when I learned how to properly shoot from the prone, I was better than most because of the techniques I had developed at the bench. I have always been at least accurate enough to hit what I needed to, no matter what the conditions were or what position I was in.

 

[1911Tuner]

Bench Shooting

Shooting from a bench and/or sandbags is a useful tool for many purposes, and a tough, competitive game for the disciples of the Benchrest match.
It's also very enjoyable for those of us who do it...which I do on occasion.
I just don't equate my success...or too often the lack of same...with my ability to hit a running deer or a goblin who is in the act of trying to kill me.

I use the bench at times for a pleasureable Sunday afternoon of paper punching or can-bustin' and for a testing/proving ground. Hey! Any shootin' is good shootin'...right?

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Stating that shooting from a bench has no effect for practical senario accuracy is wrong. It might not help you, but it could help a lot of others. Before I joined the Army all I did was bench rifle shooting and when I learned how to properly shoot from the prone, I was better than most because of the techniques I had developed at the bench. I have always been at least accurate enough to hit what I needed to, no matter what the conditions were or what position I was in.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

 

[JohnBT]

"I had assumed that most people who would choose to spend a considerable amount of time with firearms would have acquiring a high degree of skill in their use a priority."

There you go. The first step to enlightenment is the recognition of error. See, you're not the only one around here with a smart mouth.

John

 

[Logan5]

I don't Benchrest, but I do shoot rifles off the bench most of the time.

For learning purposes, shooting off the bench is kind of like shooting prone, in that it is an attempt to subtract all the confusing elements of position and wobble from the equation as much as possible, and allow a shooter to concentrate on correct sight alignment, trigger squeeze, and breathing, and getting them all right consistently. This also applies to familiarization with a new rifle, optic, load, or other equipment. So for any given combination of shooter and equipment, there will be a lot of questions the shooter will want to find the answers to off the bench (or from whatever else might be the most stable position possible) before moving on to shooting from less supportive positions in order to be able to diagnose problems and improve.

When I was on a rifle team and moved from sub-junior (all prone) to junior (prone, kneeling, standing) I remember the horrible feeling of that first day shooting positions when my score was cut in half. I do not enjoy shooting poorly, and my first reaction was to want very badly to go back to shooting prone only, because it was what I was really good at. It's probably not an uncommon reaction. On the other hand, it's only one of about two dozen reasons someone might prefer to be shooting off a bench on any particular day.

For example, while I am interested in improving my skills in shooting from various positions with my rifles that I might use for hunting or self defense, I am not interested in regularly practicing the same way with some other rifles I own which are antiques, or for which ammunition is ferociously expensive. When I shoot them, it's off the bench. Like most people, I have limited time and resources to devote to my hobbies.

I'm interested in all around field marksmanship from a whatever shooting position is most convenient, but not to the extent that I'm going to stop tinkering with wierd new guns, loads, scopes and such and concentrate exclusively on it. I just strike a balance that's comfortable and fun for me.

So, short answer: Depends what I had for breakfast that morning.

 

[f4t9r]

I am a Marksman Hole Puncher
I have a buisness card that says so !!!

 

[GunnySkox]

Are you a marksman or a paper hole puncher?

I am a banana!

~GnSx

 

[Gunpacker]

Wllm Legrand, I think you asked a serious question that quickly degenerated when some took offense. Maybe the wording "only a paper puncher" is the reason. You are right IMO, that folks that only shoot at the bench are missing a lot. I guess they want to though, and that's ok. There is room for everyone in shooting, and enjoying one thing is enough for some. Personally, I have tried just about every gun game there is, and didn't find one that wasn't fun. Some more than others. Cooper comes from the group that loves to shoot anything, and finds more to say about it than almost anyone else. That's his job and joy.
Some get sensitive when they feel that you might think that their sport might be lacking. Some are, but many folks don't want to be good at everything, just one thing. Some don't have the facilities to explore the many avenues of shooting, and I really feel sorry for them, because in exploration is discovery. If everyone had access to wide open spaces, many would change their attitude, and if they tried all the shooting sports, likewise.
For my part, I would advise anyone that enjoys shooting from the bench and hasn't tried other avenues of shooting, handgun, rifle or shotgun, to look for a game that looks interesting and try it. You might be surprised at the thrill of a new challenge, and the enjoyment of more difficult shooting.
High power, .22 rifle, silhouette handgun and rifle, IPSC, IDPA, PPC, bowling pins, trap, skeet, sporting clays, and informal get togethers to just bang away, are all fun, and add enjoyment for me.
I just shot a round of sporting clays the other day. First time. Shot alone, just to try it. Been meaning to for a long time, finally got around to it. I'm looking forward to the next time I can sneak it in. I missed a lot, but who cares, I'll do better next time.

 

[Standing Wolf]

This old bullseye shooter would be delighted to take up bench rest shooting if he had a.) the hundreds of yards' worth of space in his back yard; b.) the money to invest in serious best rench rifles and loading gadgetry, and c.) the time—but I'm not an accuracy junky.

 

[R.W.Dale]

At the range 90% of the time i'm on the bench, the marksman ship comes into play when I'm in the woods trying to turn some poor critter into lunch . I'm quite proud of the 110yd squirell shot I made the other day.

You can be a marksman without dressing up in gihllie suits and crawling around in the mud every weekend

 

[R.H. Lee]

I don't understand how marksmanship excludes paper hole punching. What difference does the target make? Marksmanship is largely trigger control while maintaining the sight picture. That is best accomplished from a rest of some kind, be it improvised or a bench. Sure, I'll shoot offhand sometimes, but I don't expect 'groups'. More like 'patterns'.

 

[6inch]

Until about a month ago I'd never shot from a bench in my life. But age had started to let me know that I needed a little help if I was going to spend any amount of time shooting.

So I built a little bench out back and bought an inexpensive handgun rest. When I start getting tired I go to the bench. I've found that I can not only shoot for a longer period of time now but I've also found that I enjoy bench shooting.

So for me, the bench is practical and fun.

What ever trips your trigger baby.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

I don't understand how marksmanship excludes paper hole punching. What difference does the target make? Marksmanship is largely trigger control while maintaining the sight picture. That is best accomplished from a rest of some kind, be it improvised or a bench. Sure, I'll shoot offhand sometimes, but I don't expect 'groups'. More like 'patterns'.

I wonder if you read the thread, especially the initial post. The dichotomy is between shooting on a bench and field marksmanship. Actually you are correct in your assertion that much of marksmanship is entailed in trigger control while maintaining the sight picture. This is akin to saying that all one has to do to play guitar expertly is to strike the correct strings while the fingers are on the right frets. WHAT CAN YOU DO IN THE FIELD? "Improvised or a bench" are mutually exclusive in this context. Rarely have I seen a bench in the field.

I differentiate between target shooting (an interesting sport, but only a sport), and field marksmanship with a rifle, or defensive marksmanship with a handgun. Target shooting is a delightful pastime, but what can you do under pressure (the excitement of the hunt or danger, and especially TIME), under field positions (improvised and spur of the moment, though the hunt can provide you with some preparation for ambush), and unknown distances, at suitable targets.

To quote Cooper:

A marksman is one who can make his weapon do what it was designed to do.

An expert marksman is one who can hit anything he can see, under appropriate circumstances.

A master marksman is one who can shoot up to his rifle.

The latter two are telling points. The reference here is that the rifle, generally speaking, is not a toy. It is a weapon to be used as such. What can you do with it within the context for which it was designed? I'm still working on the second.

As for the last, "shoot up to his rifle", this exposes the issue. It does not MATTER what you can do from the bench, except to delude yourself as to your own competency, or to utilize or evalutate the weapon as a mechanical device, absent most of the variables that your actual USE puts into the equation. Can you do the same in field positions, under pressure of time, under the pressure of the hunt, at unknown distances, the "1 second" of a degree that so many of you claim your rifle is capable? I doubt it.

My point in this thread is expose for discussion the folly of thinking that group size, done from a bench, without pressure actually MEANS something. Maybe it does...but I don't see the point.

 

[bogie]

Okay. Where do you live.

I'll shoot offhand, at a measured 100 yards.

$100 for a 5 shot group?

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Okay. Where do you live.

I'll shoot offhand, at a measured 100 yards.

$100 for a 5 shot group?

Where the hell did THAT come from? And why?

(Colorado, as if it matters..)