Arm teachers....NRA gone nutz?

[straightShot]

A parent's job is to parent

A parents job is to parent and that's what I do.

That's what I do, too! My 5 year old can tell you the four components of a pistol cartridge, the gun safety rules, actually follow the gun safety rules, and shoot his .22 rifle at the range.

Take a kid shooting,

straightShot

 

[El Tejon]

If you arm the good guys, the bad guys will stay away. The reason mad dogs run amuck in schools is because the media tells them that they can.

Spike a head and the rest will stay away.

 

[shermacman]

It is the same idea as arming airplane pilots. Imagine allowing people to carry guns who could best control a bad situation.
Works for me.

 

[saltydog]

Quote:
Arm teachers....NRA gone nutz?


I hope so!

 

[Selfdfenz]

"The streets will run with blood"

That's what the antis said time and again about CC in state after state.
CC came anyway.
Didn't happen. Will not happen.
I will argue CC has reduced crime.


Now "they" say the same thing or something like it regarding concealed weapons carry for teachers and airline pilots.
In the case of teachers, the halls will run with blood, they can't handle it, it would not work... etc.

Same argument and wrong this time too.

S-

 

[Deavis]

Cops have 5x the wrongful and accidental shooting rate that CCW licensees do

And the wrong people are more often wounded or killed when a peace officer opens fire as opposed to when a regular person opens fire.

1st quote - Police are subject to a huge variety of shooting situations that the regular citizen is not. I would bet, and I'm only guessing based on personal experience, that the average police officer sees more situations where deadly force is required than the average CCW sees. Statistically, you should expect there to be more mistakes as the number of encounters rises. I'm not defending bad shootings but that is an awfully big brush you are painting with there.

2nd quote - When a CCW has pulled his weapon, he knows for sure he is in trouble. CCWs are under no obligation to arrest anyone , investigate a crime, or negotiate a situation. Someone jacks us, we pull the roscoe, and attend to the situation in a necessary and proper way. Crime comes to CCWs, so it should be no surprise that CCWs shoot the right person more often than the police. Also, remember the above, CCWs aren't out actively looking for and engaging troublesome situations.

Perhaps part of it is that CCWs are much more mentally restrained, due to possible legal consequences and lack of paid leave in the wake of a shooting, that they wait until the last possible moment to act. Another factor could be that many CCWs are adamant about their skills and practice more often than the average beat cop. As I said, I'm not defending bad shoots, but to just assume that a CCW is a better choice to protect a school than a police officer based on the quoted arguments above is shaky. I believe that the two complement each other and there is nothing like a layered defense. Besides, CCW is free and a police presence is not.

 

[bigolddeerhunter]

I like Norton am a teacher. I am in an elem. school. Not all of us are anti gun leftist. Many of us in my school shoot and hunt....yes even the ladies. My lady principal is a NRA life member. I gave her a box of ammo for Christmas one year. My point is schools are unprotected. How much money are you willing to spend to hire police to protect your schools? Many people already gripe about their school taxes. I don't know many people that would be willing to have their taxes increased. Someone said in one of their post that teachers and students used to have guns in their cars when they were in school. It was that way in my school days also. However, something has gone wrong in our nation and I just can't put my finger on it. There was a time that people didn't even lock their homes, but those times have past. In school the major discipline problme was chewing gum in my day. Today it is assaults on both students and teachers. I would be willing to carry a gun at school, however I think those ideas are a long way off from coming to pass. I don't think it will happen in my time as a teacher.

Someone also said that teachers could be trained to carry and some teachers you would not want them to carry. This is true and it also holds for the general population not just teachers.

At least the NRA has opened the door for a national discussion and as odd as it sounds even the NEA has to admit we have a problem. I am also a NEA member, but I don't go along with some of their thinking. There are a lot of us teachers that are not left wingers. Don't be mislead.

Thanks for your time in hearing me out.

 

[Marko Kloos]

And this means they're "trained enough" to protect other people?

I'll give you an example of your logic:

You can kill a person with improperly done CPR. Even if you perform CPR on a cardiac arrest victim, they may still die...in fact, the success rate for CPR is around 20%.

By your reasoning, teachers and private citizen responders should not be required or allowed to be adult/child/infant CPR certified, simply because their actions might cause more harm in an emergency. They should either have EMTs on staff at every school, or they should just wait for the EMTs to arrive while little Bobby flops around on the floor.

CPR may kill someone, but they will almost certainly die if you do nothing, and each minute without CPR drops their chance of survival by double-digit percentage points. CCW teachers may kill an innocent by accident while trying to defend a classroom full of kids against a nutjob with a rifle, but without the permit holder....well, every minute without armed intervention will enable the shooter to kill a whole lot of people.

Fact is, CPR certifications and CCW permits give you an extra option in case of emergency, an extra tool you have the option to use if you see that nothing else will do the trick. Without the CCW or CPR, you have no options at all beyond picking up a phone.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Just for the record, the Israelis who have some expeince with attacks on schools, do allow teachers to carry weapons.

In fact, if you watch the news closely, you'll occasionally see a shot of school kids going on an outing, protected by M16-toting teachers.

 

[GEM]

Bah - we trust CCW from anyone in the mall full of women and kids and nuns and grandmas and Santa Claus but we can't trust a teacher?

I'm a teacher and I get to go to the National Tactical Invitational and trained with LFI, OPS, Insights, KRtraining and others. I even get to play terrorists and aggressor with our campus police.

A friend of mine at the same institution was an Army 1911 champion when he was in the service. Another was a colonel in the Special Forces.

Rather have us armed than many others I know.

The solution is to allow CCW by teachers who have permits. Special training leads to the crap we see with the slowness of the TSA and pilots.

However, the armed teacher should be expected to act as an LEO. The gun is for the use of lethal force in life threatening situations.

So to Mr. HighVelocity :

You sir, are a wussy and should write Sarah Brady and Hillary Clinton romantic poetry !

 

[Vern Humphrey]

On a similar debate on this subject a couple of years back, someone said, "What will you say if a kid asks you, 'Mrs Smith, is that a GUN in your purse?'"

The answer was, "The same thing I do when a kid says 'Mrs Smith, is that a TAMPAX in your purse?'"

 

[HighVelocity]

You sir, are a wussy and should write Sarah Brady and Hillary Clinton romantic poetry

Name calling on THR, never expected that. You have the right to disagree with my assessment of the subject but that doesn't make you right. We simply see things differently and name calling won't change that.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I somewhat agree with the extra training requirement, but not really firearm related training.

You take your average CHL holder. That person is trained for immediate reponse to a direct threat against himself or one, maybe 2 other people.
Training for that is relatively straightforward.

Now let's move into a classroom. You are teaching a class and you hear gunshots down the hall. What do you do? Draw your gun and go in the hall looking? No. You need to establish a defensive position in your classroom, maximizing concealment/cover for your students while maintaining contact on the door, prepared to neutralize any threat that comes in, all the while with a room full of screaming and crying second graders.

Firearm ability is really second here to being able to quickly assess a situation from a tactical point of view, dealing with distractions, knowing proper use of conealment, possibly clearing a room or part of a building if it gets to that point.

That's not stuff that is taught in CHL classes. I don't think that any additional firearms training would be called for, but I would not want to be put in the position of having to defend an occupied position, against unknown assailants, without having some kind of tactical training in that area.

In these school shootings, as we learned in the tradgedy in Tyler, TX; having a CHL and a gun handy does not always result in a positive ending. Training
for specialized situations like this would be critical in my view.

 

[swan hunter]

Teacher with a gun?

Would you rather have your child hiding under a desk in a room with an armed teacher when a little piece of crap comes in with a pump shotgun or would you rather have the teacher hiding under the same desk unarmed?
They might not have what it takes to stop the idiot but, it would be a lot more of a chance than without them armed!

 

[Jeff White]

What do we hope to accomplish by arming the teachers?

If we want to create a deterrant we can accomplish that by arming the teachers. This will help some with terrorists and criminals. It may or may not help with the crazies who are motiated by who knows what.

If we want to give each classroom a last ditch line of defense, we can accomplish that by arming the teachers.

If we want the school staff to respond to an active shooter incident and stop it, we'll have to specially select and train those staff members. Does anyone care to see their property taxes raised enough to pay for this type of selection, training and liability insurance that our school districts would have to provide?

You can't just issue teachers firearms and tell them to defend their classroom. It's the same as issuing everyone a sidearm and telling them to defend themselves on the street. Some people just don't care to. We've got enough problems getting qualified people into the teaching profession now. It's not going to help by adding more requirements.

IMHO the best solution would be to allow any teacher that wanted to carry in the classroom to carry. The weapon would be used for the last line of defense for themselves and the students. No teachers should be leaving their students to hunt down an active shooter. That's a recipe for disaster with numbers of armed people roaming the school as the police begin their active shooter response.

Jeff

 

[OF]

Good points, Jeff.

There is no argument here that issuing sidearms to teachers willy-nilly is a bad idea (actually, I'm not so sure it's a bad idea, but that's not the point). What is being proposed is to allow currently licensed CCW holders, who already carry in crowds of people, in bldgs, around children, wherever, to carry their personally owned sidearms on school grounds.

That's what I call a 'first step'.

The 'next step' would be to offer (making it mandatory would be an issue for discussion) situation specific training to these people as budgets allowed or subsidize private training. I guarantee you that if this was on the table, all the major gun skools would put curriculums together and offer them at very reasonable rates. You can bet on it.

There is no more chance of a CCW-holder hurting someone accidentaly than there is while they (we) are out in the general public. People are packing heat all over this country and it hasn't proven to be a problem.

Quite the opposite. It's absolutely incontrovertible. There is no basis, none, for crying wolf that people are going to be accidentally shot because CCW holders are amongst a given population. Statistically, it doesn't happen. It is a non-issue, regardless of how you feel about it, personally.

The prohibition on CCW in schools is an abysmal immoral failure. People are getting killed. How could this possibly make it worse?

I'd start off with state-level legislation in a couple of the braver states to allow CCW holders to carry on school grounds and require the guns be concealed. I would advertise the legislation actively (not that you'll need to) and give some numbers re: what percentage of schools now have quietly armed adults in them as a deterrent. As each state moves forward, there will be successful models to call upon in your own state as examples (exactly like CCW legislation has been passed overwhelmingly around the country).

- Gabe

 

[beerslurpy]

1st quote - Police are subject to a huge variety of shooting situations that the regular citizen is not. I would bet, and I'm only guessing based on personal experience, that the average police officer sees more situations where deadly force is required than the average CCW sees. Statistically, you should expect there to be more mistakes as the number of encounters rises. I'm not defending bad shootings but that is an awfully big brush you are painting with there.

2nd quote - When a CCW has pulled his weapon, he knows for sure he is in trouble. CCWs are under no obligation to arrest anyone , investigate a crime, or negotiate a situation. Someone jacks us, we pull the roscoe, and attend to the situation in a necessary and proper way. Crime comes to CCWs, so it should be no surprise that CCWs shoot the right person more often than the police. Also, remember the above, CCWs aren't out actively looking for and engaging troublesome situations.

I agree. Tell me which one being a school teacher is most like:
-being a cop and pursuing potentially dangerous suspects to make arrests
-being a civilian who doenst ordinarily deal with violence and only has to shoot in defense of self or others

Consider that there are practically no situations (including discplinary) in a school besides defense that require force. Its very easy to see why allowing teachers to be armed is a great idea that is very unlikely to backfire.

 

[ksnecktieman]

Where are the second amendment freedom hawks? Am I the only one left? The solution looks simple to me, just remove all restrictions from ccw specifically directed at schools. I like the idea of doing away with all of the "gun free criminal safety zones". Schools, churches, courtrooms,public buildings, state parks, etc.. CCW works to prevent crime, allow it to work everywhere.

 

[RoyG]

Where are the second amendment freedom hawks? Am I the only one left? The solution looks simple to me, just remove all restrictions from ccw specifically directed at schools. I like the idea of doing away with all of the "gun free criminal safety zones". Schools, churches, courtrooms,public buildings, state parks, etc.. CCW works to prevent crime, allow it to work everywhere.

I agree.

If the state trusts you enough to "allow" you to ccw then it doesn't matter where you CCW.

Only restriction I would put on teacher school carry is it MUST be on your body. No off body carry (purses, fanny packs, backpacks, "man purses").

Lets face it most of the teachers WOULD NOT carry. And their union would go through the roof also.

 

[Kamicosmos]

A teacher with a gun DID STOP a student shooter!!

A few years back a teacher, or maybe it was the principal, went to his car and retrieved his 1911 and used it, without firing a shot, to stop a student armed with a 30-30 lever action rifle. The student had gone to the HS, I believe, and wounded a few people there, then drove to the junior high or an elementary school and was heading in. The Teacher had heard it on the news or had recieved a phone call about it, so he already had his gun. He stopped the student successfully, saving untold numbers of lives that day.

Massad had an article in Handgunner about it a few years back, and I believe it's also documented at crimelibrary.com. I'll try to find it.

I agree, let teachers and other staff with CCW carry in schools. Let Pilots with CCW carry on planes and in airports. Let DRs with CCWs carry in hospitals, etc.
Heck let us CCW'ers carry everywhere!

 

[publius]

All I have to say is that I'm the only one professional enough, that I know of, to carry a BANG!!! owww!!!

ROTFLMAO!!

 

[rwc]

A few different thoughts:

"arming all teachers"
Having only ~ 5% of teachers carrying concealed pistols would create virtually a statistical certainty that in every school you would have a couple of armed teachers or staff. IMO - this would itself act as a significant deterrent, as it has in Israel.

IMO - this deterrence is will have a greater effect on preventing incidents than the tactical readiness or training of any individual teacher would have on their response to a spacific incident. As others have pointed out, human variability means some teachers will be calm and respond well and some LEOs will have "the jumps" and respond poorly. Or to put it another way, give me a gunny who did his 20 and is now working on his second pension teaching history at a local HS over a 19 year old who is six months out of the academy working the same HS as an outreach or DARE officer.

WA state law already exempts CCW holders while dropping off or picking up a student. It wouldn't take much more to include teachers in the list of exemptions. http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?section=9.41.280&fuseaction=section

As others have pointed out, the political resistance of the teacher's unions would likely kill this.

Unfortunately it will probably take several more tragedies (or a teacher illegally carrying a concealed firearm who stops an attack) to force the state legislatures to step up to this issue.

As an aside, I think the general level of courtesy in the schools would jump.

 

[lwsimon]

How about a simpler solution? Do away with the GFSZA, and replace it with a federal law allowing concealed carry in schools provided the individual has a state CCW. If we're REALLY dreaming, lets add a line in there making it impossible to fire a school employee for legally carrying.

Now, teachers are armed, and they're never even mentioned. "Arming the teachers" gets everyone in a tizzy. Let's use anti tactics. They make guns sound scary, and ban them. We should make the low sound soft and fluffy, and pass it!

 

[Firethorn]

While yes, I'd support arming every teacher. For one thing, it'd probably get a number of the gun-hating lefties out of the profession. It'd probably stop school shootings cold like it did in Israel.

However, I'm practical. Given that most teachers are not qualified to carry, and the screams that will happen on the mere mention of this, I want to seem 'reasonable' to the outside world. By allowing trained, tested, and cleared teachers and faculty to carry. As designated by having a valid CCW permit.

As what has been said elsewhere, obtaining armed security, whether that be police or not, is expensive. As in costing teachers. It'd be much cheaper to allow the faculty already there to provide security 'at their own expense', or even pay a pittance.

 

[El Rojo]

I am a high school teacher at a continuation high school. If there were going to be a shooting or stabbing, I have pretty good odds of it occuring at my school.

High Velocity. I understand your wanting to protect your kids, but I completely disagree with your assessment of a citizen's ability to be a resonsible firearms user vs. a law enforcement officers. If you get nothing else out of this thread, please get this. There should be no difference in your mind about the abilities of a regular joe schmoe citizen and a police officer. They are no different than us. NONE! Might they receive more training than most citizens, sure. However, just in case you missed it, go watch this video. (this is the good version, fast download)

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/copshootsleg.html

Having just watched a "trained" DEA agent shoot himself in the leg with a handgun in front of students, can you honestly still believe cops are the only ones professional enough to be armed around your children? I hope not.

Now, on to carrying as a teacher. I personally wouldn't want to. I carry every where else, so I am not uncomfortable with carrying. I would be uncomfortable with students ever finding out I carry. The nice thing about CCW is no one knows I am carrying and so I don't feel like a target and I don't have to be as concerned with weapons retention. The dress I wear as a teacher isn't all that great for concealed carry. I just wouldn't want to. If a student ever did find out I was carrying, you know it would be all over school in no time. Plus not all students are mature enough to handle their teacher carrying. Sure in a perfect world they wouldn't fear a teacher who carries nor would they disrespect such a teacher, but this place ain't perfect. Just one kid finding out about you carrying and in my opinion the whole thing would be blown.

However, we have campus officers who carry openly and they aren't wrestled to the ground and their guns stolen. The problem is their job is different than mine. I don't want to be the "opposition" at school. That doesn't mean I don't enforce my classroom rules, but there is a definite difference between a security guard or police officer and a teacher. They serve two different roles. I don't think I could be as effective as a teacher if I had to carry and the kids even had an inkling that I was. I could be wrong if I tried it, but I doubt that would ever happen.

I would be more in favor of having a lock box in the classroom and having a gun in there. Let the kids know about it and make it a well known thing. That wouldn't be any different than the kids seeing the campus cop with a gun. You explain to the students that there is a lock box and it is to be used only in emergencies. Or don't tell them and keep it all hush hush. It don't matter. the difference to me is I don't have to worry about weapon retention and there can be no inference made by the students that the firearm can be used for anything other than life threatening emergencies.

If a student wants to walk into my class and shoot me, lets be realistic, there isn't a darn thing I could do about it whether I was armed or not. I can draw and shoot two in 1.5 seconds and closer to 2 or so concealed. However in a classroom setting, I would have to add at least 1 to 2 seconds to assess the situation and come to the conclusion that, "OH S**T THIS IS IT!", draw and shoot. Sorry, that isn't enough time and I would die if a motivated student came in and decided I was to die. I think it is important for gun owners to realize that a gun is not the cure all self defense tool. We need to realize that your time might be up and you might die even if you have a gun strapped to your hip.

However, if a kid comes in to the class next to mine and starts shooting or shoots the security guard outside, it would be nice to be able to get into a lock box within 10 seconds and be able to defend my classroom. In a situation like that, the rest of the students will respond and will listen to my instructions and so I wouldn't be worried about weapon retention, but just the threat at hand.

I have already prepared my classes. I explained to them that if a shooter does come on campus and we don't have time to jump out the back window and scale the fence or flee, they need to be prepared to kill someone for me. I tell them that if I take a bullet jumping on the guy who came in the door with a gun, they better kill him. I would do the same thing for them. It gets a little somber in the room because they realize I am not joking and I tell them to gouge out eyeballs, kick, bite, do whatever it takes.

I just think the dynamic in the classroom would change if the students ever found out I was carrying. I also don't want to have the added responsiblity of remaining concealed and weapons retention in the classroom. I have a hard enough time dealing with these immature and unmotivated youths as it is and the addition of a firearm into a classroom of immature high schoolers would create more problems. Give me a good lock box only to be used in case of a school shooting or stabbing and I would be all for it.