This is terribly sad. First of all that an experienced person considers it reasonably probable (as a comment on society--not your assessment), and second, that there would be any question on how to stop them from carrying out their crime.
Arm teachers....NRA gone nutz?
- Thread starter Shovelhead
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I apologize for calling Mr. HighVelocity a wussy. I should have used logic to point out that his position makes no sense.
Teachers are responsible for the most part and probably more responsible than the average person. One would carry in school particularly because you wanted to be able to act to save your young students.
That is a higher calling than the average CHL who wants to save his own or her own skin.
We trust the average CHL in high density situations like the mall that have infants and old people. Thus we cannot trust the teacher CHL in a school?
It makes no sense.
Teachers work in soft target environments. An attack on the school will leave tens of students dead as in Columbine or Breslan. The risk of an ND or a missed shot is not trivial but that loss is minor as compared to the massacre.
I was shocked that a supporter of the RKBA would take a position that seemingly buys into the crappola of Sarah Brady and Hillary Clinton.
And I was steamed. I should be deprived on my rights? So I showed a touch of emotion. Sue me.
Teachers are responsible for the most part and probably more responsible than the average person. One would carry in school particularly because you wanted to be able to act to save your young students.
That is a higher calling than the average CHL who wants to save his own or her own skin.
We trust the average CHL in high density situations like the mall that have infants and old people. Thus we cannot trust the teacher CHL in a school?
It makes no sense.
Teachers work in soft target environments. An attack on the school will leave tens of students dead as in Columbine or Breslan. The risk of an ND or a missed shot is not trivial but that loss is minor as compared to the massacre.
I was shocked that a supporter of the RKBA would take a position that seemingly buys into the crappola of Sarah Brady and Hillary Clinton.
And I was steamed. I should be deprived on my rights? So I showed a touch of emotion. Sue me.
shermacman
Member
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- 1,751
GEM:
Please send me a financial assets statement. And a list of all the firearms you own. If it is worth it, I'll have my lawyer contact you. Thank your for your offer!
What would Hillary Clinton romantic poetry sound like?
Please send me a financial assets statement. And a list of all the firearms you own. If it is worth it, I'll have my lawyer contact you. Thank your for your offer!
What would Hillary Clinton romantic poetry sound like?
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
I say, kill the 1000 yard rule. HV, if you don't like it, you are welcome to find a private, liberal, school to send your children.
AZLibertarian
Member
P95Carry-Pg 1
I don't have time now to go through this whole thread, but I hope I'm not the only one to see a distinct parallel here to how we have armed our pilots. I would envision some sort of upgraded CCW-type course (which would include some, but not all of the elements of the pilot's course). I agree that not everybody would want to do this, nor would the "system" want everyone in. But I've said a number of times that we ought to consider this. I'm not surprised that the NRA is out in front of this, but will be surprised if the NEA or the various school districts begin to have this discussion.
HighVelocity
Member
Nowhere in this thread did I say anything about keeping CCW's out of schools. Nor did I take sides with Hillary and the Brady bunch. Sprackenzie english? I said properly trained individuals or LEO's. If a teacher can be trained and is willing to defend their classroom then I have no problem with it and will support that.
If you're a teacher and you already have the training then good for you. I'll bet that less than 1% of teachers in this country are currently qualified for this task. Congratulations.
The question is then, should all CCW or CHL types have to meet some standard of training?
I find a CHL in the school no different from one in the mall or in church. There are large numbers of folks around if a terrorist attack occurs.
What differentiates a school from any other high density, general populace location?
Should my level of training be mandated for all CHLs? For a normal guy, it is pretty intense. I have a good number of friends who passed the CHL test with mediocre scores and their training is reading Guns and Ammo and then shooting at a static square range. Should they carry in public?
Lott found that 30% of school shootings did have successful firearms interventions from nonsecurity types. I have not seen a bad shoot ever in one of these cases.
I find a CHL in the school no different from one in the mall or in church. There are large numbers of folks around if a terrorist attack occurs.
What differentiates a school from any other high density, general populace location?
Should my level of training be mandated for all CHLs? For a normal guy, it is pretty intense. I have a good number of friends who passed the CHL test with mediocre scores and their training is reading Guns and Ammo and then shooting at a static square range. Should they carry in public?
Lott found that 30% of school shootings did have successful firearms interventions from nonsecurity types. I have not seen a bad shoot ever in one of these cases.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
You said:
And:
Then you say:
And I still say, kill the 1000 yard rule. If you don't like it, you are welcome to find a private, liberal, school to send your children because that's the only one that will meet your criteria...
And:
Then you say:
And I still say, kill the 1000 yard rule. If you don't like it, you are welcome to find a private, liberal, school to send your children because that's the only one that will meet your criteria...
HighVelocity
Member
So Derby, you believe any TEACHER that can get a CCW permit based on the current requirements for that permit COULD AND WOULD defend your children?
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Of course not. But, how would a perp know which one would, or which one wouldn't?
AZLibertarian
Member
GEM
I think that once the NEA/School boards hypothetically give into this idea (and I have no reason to believe they'll even discuss it), you'd end up with some training expected beyond the state's CCW requirements. Reason: What you're now doing is treading all over the School District's liability. They, and their insurance carriers, will insist on it.
Here in AZ, most high population density areas (malls, ball-games, concerts, etc) are no-CCW zones. If a CCW holder does end up in a bad-shoot scenario, he ought to expect to probably go to jail and lose his house and savings--the property owner of the shooting location won't be much affected. The CCW holder was acting as an individual and not an agent of the property owner. However, should a public employee act similarly while on public property, I cannot imagine that the locality involved would be protected.
Well, what differentiates a school is that it is public property with public employees you're envisioning arming, verses private property with people carrying as individuals, not employees.
I think that once the NEA/School boards hypothetically give into this idea (and I have no reason to believe they'll even discuss it), you'd end up with some training expected beyond the state's CCW requirements. Reason: What you're now doing is treading all over the School District's liability. They, and their insurance carriers, will insist on it.
Here in AZ, most high population density areas (malls, ball-games, concerts, etc) are no-CCW zones. If a CCW holder does end up in a bad-shoot scenario, he ought to expect to probably go to jail and lose his house and savings--the property owner of the shooting location won't be much affected. The CCW holder was acting as an individual and not an agent of the property owner. However, should a public employee act similarly while on public property, I cannot imagine that the locality involved would be protected.
hoppinglark
Member
Bottom-Line
Teachers are people too, and they have a right to defend themselves.
Teachers are people too, and they have a right to defend themselves.
I do not want to be an officially armed teacher. I simply want the same right that I have to carry in the mall which is also full of folks.
I have yet to see a cogent argument that differentiates carry by the CCW permit holder in church (crowded) or the mall (crowded) from the school.
I also fall to see the logic that says:
1. Terrorist or active shooter attacks school and surely your child will die.
2. Terrorist or active shooter attacks school and perhaps the CCW permit holder could save your child but there is a small risk of of friendly fire (still shot).
Thus I prefer Number one.
I would also remind you that Officer Friendly might just as easily accidentally shoot your child.
Bah - the more I read, the more I think we are a nation of cowards. Keep your kid in a concrete bunker and home school the little tyke - TO PROTECT HIM OR HER FROM THE ARMED TEACHER THAN MIGHT BE TRYING TO STOP A TERRORISTS. :banghead: :banghead:
PS: Would those of you are against the armed teacher please turn in your CCW permits unless you can pass a test that I decide will keep me safe from you? Just because you post on a gun list doesn't mean that you are Annie Oakley (who had more ...)
I have yet to see a cogent argument that differentiates carry by the CCW permit holder in church (crowded) or the mall (crowded) from the school.
I also fall to see the logic that says:
1. Terrorist or active shooter attacks school and surely your child will die.
2. Terrorist or active shooter attacks school and perhaps the CCW permit holder could save your child but there is a small risk of of friendly fire (still shot).
Thus I prefer Number one.
I would also remind you that Officer Friendly might just as easily accidentally shoot your child.
Bah - the more I read, the more I think we are a nation of cowards. Keep your kid in a concrete bunker and home school the little tyke - TO PROTECT HIM OR HER FROM THE ARMED TEACHER THAN MIGHT BE TRYING TO STOP A TERRORISTS. :banghead: :banghead:
PS: Would those of you are against the armed teacher please turn in your CCW permits unless you can pass a test that I decide will keep me safe from you? Just because you post on a gun list doesn't mean that you are Annie Oakley (who had more ...)
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
thats the wrong mentality, that a great many in this country have adopted. just because a person is only PAID to perform one task doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to perform others.
we dont like it when mere civilians whine about how the police should be protecting them, right?
yeah, lets keep letting deranged youths go on killing everyone until they run out of ammo, instead of allowing teachers the ability to stop the carnage.
i dont have psych evals. i dont have 'threat resolution training'. what makes me any different than professor plumb?
Spreadfire Arms
Member
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- Feb 23, 2005
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- 1,312
deanh wrote:
"And the wrong people are more often wounded or killed when a peace officer opens fire as opposed to when a regular person opens fire."
deanh, please provide evidence to back up this statement. also what is a "regular person." does that include all persons that are not police officers? does that include suspects in a drive-by shooting? please be more specific. in addition, police are obligated to keep track of shooting statistics. "regular people," depending on your definition, are not necessarily required to keep track. so, if a "regular person" shoots at someone but hits someone else instead, is he obligated to report it? or can he just leave the scene? if it is not reported, then how do we keep accurate statistics?
this controversy was brought up in another thread on this board. i questioned what kind of cluster this was going to be when the responding cops showed up and didn't know who was the CCW'd teacher and who was the bad guy.
i got mixed posts. one guy said it wouldn't matter because by the time the cops arrived the CCW'd teachers would have found the bad guy and neutralized the threat.
then i got another guy who said the teachers would lock down their classrooms and only fire upon the suspect if he entered the classroom.
so which is it? are the teachers supposed to go after the bad guy (with no training whatsoever on how to do this, not training as a team, and also risking tactical mistakes like crossfire, potentially shooting at other good guys, etc.)? what about an accidental discharge? at a school an A/D can be extremely dangerous. are they trained when to keep their fingers on or off the trigger, and when? are they taught escalation of force, or de-escalation? or do they only get to use deadly force?
then who watches over the students while the teachers are chasing a bad guy? what about more than 1 bad guy, like Columbine? how do the teachers form a tactical plan and go after both bad guys? or just 1? who would be in charge of forming the team? if the teachers are split up into 2+ teams how do they communicate? via cellphone? so if there are more than 2 teams how do you communicate via a cellphone to 3 or more teams? conference call? then who's on the phone with the responding PD?
how often will the teachers have to qualify on their weapons? will it just be a civilian CCW or will it be a special teacher's CCW? if its a teacher's CCW what qualification course will it be? will it be to shoot from cover, behind a desk, or anything specific to how they might have to engage a bad guy? will they be taught any sort of tactics?
everytime i asked these questions and others, i got "worst case scenario" replies. isn't a shooting a "worst case scenario?" or is it just a "pretty bad scenario?" anyone who has worked professionally with an employer authorizing deadly force (military, law enforcement, etc) knows that shooting policies are very comprehensive and take into consideration almost any type of scenario. why? because there is a huge liability issue when you allow your employees to carry firearms with the authorization to use deadly force.
just bringing up the questions from the last post that went unanswered.
"And the wrong people are more often wounded or killed when a peace officer opens fire as opposed to when a regular person opens fire."
deanh, please provide evidence to back up this statement. also what is a "regular person." does that include all persons that are not police officers? does that include suspects in a drive-by shooting? please be more specific. in addition, police are obligated to keep track of shooting statistics. "regular people," depending on your definition, are not necessarily required to keep track. so, if a "regular person" shoots at someone but hits someone else instead, is he obligated to report it? or can he just leave the scene? if it is not reported, then how do we keep accurate statistics?
this controversy was brought up in another thread on this board. i questioned what kind of cluster this was going to be when the responding cops showed up and didn't know who was the CCW'd teacher and who was the bad guy.
i got mixed posts. one guy said it wouldn't matter because by the time the cops arrived the CCW'd teachers would have found the bad guy and neutralized the threat.
then i got another guy who said the teachers would lock down their classrooms and only fire upon the suspect if he entered the classroom.
so which is it? are the teachers supposed to go after the bad guy (with no training whatsoever on how to do this, not training as a team, and also risking tactical mistakes like crossfire, potentially shooting at other good guys, etc.)? what about an accidental discharge? at a school an A/D can be extremely dangerous. are they trained when to keep their fingers on or off the trigger, and when? are they taught escalation of force, or de-escalation? or do they only get to use deadly force?
then who watches over the students while the teachers are chasing a bad guy? what about more than 1 bad guy, like Columbine? how do the teachers form a tactical plan and go after both bad guys? or just 1? who would be in charge of forming the team? if the teachers are split up into 2+ teams how do they communicate? via cellphone? so if there are more than 2 teams how do you communicate via a cellphone to 3 or more teams? conference call? then who's on the phone with the responding PD?
how often will the teachers have to qualify on their weapons? will it just be a civilian CCW or will it be a special teacher's CCW? if its a teacher's CCW what qualification course will it be? will it be to shoot from cover, behind a desk, or anything specific to how they might have to engage a bad guy? will they be taught any sort of tactics?
everytime i asked these questions and others, i got "worst case scenario" replies. isn't a shooting a "worst case scenario?" or is it just a "pretty bad scenario?" anyone who has worked professionally with an employer authorizing deadly force (military, law enforcement, etc) knows that shooting policies are very comprehensive and take into consideration almost any type of scenario. why? because there is a huge liability issue when you allow your employees to carry firearms with the authorization to use deadly force.
just bringing up the questions from the last post that went unanswered.
El Rojo
Member
Being a teacher and being at work right now, I honestly wouldn't want to deal with carrying at work. I have enough other things to worry about and would rather not have to add weapons retention and concealment to my list. Again, I say get a good lock box and have a gun locked up in the classroom. It would only be used in the case of a shooter or stabber on campus. Just like having armed pilots. Their primary responsibility is to fly the plane and concentrate on that. Only if something really bad happens should they have to worry about the gun. I personally think if I had to carry on my person on campus, I would have to worry about retention and concealment more than teaching. Plus, in this society, I think having armed teachers would change the dynamic in the classroom. That doesn't mean it is right, but it is reality. Heck it might even change it for the better. Maybe kids would be more respectful of their teachers. Who knows. I just know what I feel and I don't feel like carrying on a busy campus if the kids even had an inkling that I were carrying.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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Being a teacher and being at work right now, I honestly wouldn't want to deal with carrying at work. I have enough other things to worry about and would rather not have to add weapons retention and concealment to my list. Again, I say get a good lock box and have a gun locked up in the classroom. It would only be used in the case of a shooter or stabber on campus.
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The safest form of carry is on-body. I carry all the time, and have no problems with weapons retention and concealment.
But if I kept my gun locked in a public building, what do you bet that box would be broken open and the gun stolen?
Why not let each teacher choose? Those who chose to obtain CCWs should be allowed to carry at work. Those who don't, don't have to.
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Being a teacher and being at work right now, I honestly wouldn't want to deal with carrying at work. I have enough other things to worry about and would rather not have to add weapons retention and concealment to my list. Again, I say get a good lock box and have a gun locked up in the classroom. It would only be used in the case of a shooter or stabber on campus.
---------------------------------
The safest form of carry is on-body. I carry all the time, and have no problems with weapons retention and concealment.
But if I kept my gun locked in a public building, what do you bet that box would be broken open and the gun stolen?
Why not let each teacher choose? Those who chose to obtain CCWs should be allowed to carry at work. Those who don't, don't have to.
I'm surprised that nobody from Utah has chimed in here yet.
Here in Utah, anybody can CCW on any public school grounds, including teachers. Do I have a problem with it? Not at all. In fact, I carried my sidearm legally every single day for the last 2 1/2 years of my college education. I knew others on the campus who did the same thing.
I think that the most important points that have been made here is that at least armed teachers gives an option for some measure of response, instead of just cowering under a desk watching all of our little ones get shot.
Here in Utah, anybody can CCW on any public school grounds, including teachers. Do I have a problem with it? Not at all. In fact, I carried my sidearm legally every single day for the last 2 1/2 years of my college education. I knew others on the campus who did the same thing.
I think that the most important points that have been made here is that at least armed teachers gives an option for some measure of response, instead of just cowering under a desk watching all of our little ones get shot.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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I'ts really not that big of a deal.
The school doesn't even have to know.
Just take repeal the no CCW on school grounds law and let nature take it's course.
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That would work -- if bureaucrats had common sense.
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I'ts really not that big of a deal.
The school doesn't even have to know.
Just take repeal the no CCW on school grounds law and let nature take it's course.
-------------------------------
That would work -- if bureaucrats had common sense.
JohnBT
Member
Let's see, along about 1962 I was in the 7th grade in downtown Baltimore. I know, but it wasn't so bad back then.
An 8th grader got called to the vice principal's office for doing something or other and pulled a knife on the guy. The V.P. pulled a revolver and shot the kid. The ambulance came and life went on.
See, it works.
John
An 8th grader got called to the vice principal's office for doing something or other and pulled a knife on the guy. The V.P. pulled a revolver and shot the kid. The ambulance came and life went on.
See, it works.
John
MikeIsaj
Member
"Why do they have to be a peace office to protect someone? Peace officers operate under the same use of force laws as other people who carry guns."
Not exactly! In Pennsylvania the laws of justification make several exceptions for law enforcement. They also ironically offer some tighter restrictions than the average citizen.
Also in Pa. we have Act-235, a certification program to carry a lethel weapon in your employment. You do a medical and psych screen, background check by the State Police and must successfully complete a 40hr course on lethal force, to include qualification with your weapon.
Any teacher who wants to carry at work should be allowed after being certified. This also will require the school district to develop a policy for use of lethal force to give the armed teachers authority.
It certainly would change the dynamic of the situation.
One more thought, A gun locked in a box is a gun that does not exist.
Not exactly! In Pennsylvania the laws of justification make several exceptions for law enforcement. They also ironically offer some tighter restrictions than the average citizen.
Also in Pa. we have Act-235, a certification program to carry a lethel weapon in your employment. You do a medical and psych screen, background check by the State Police and must successfully complete a 40hr course on lethal force, to include qualification with your weapon.
Any teacher who wants to carry at work should be allowed after being certified. This also will require the school district to develop a policy for use of lethal force to give the armed teachers authority.
It certainly would change the dynamic of the situation.
One more thought, A gun locked in a box is a gun that does not exist.
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El Rojo
Member
I carry all of the time too. However, I don't carry at a public school where I am expected to be the disciplinarian at times and to maintain classroom order. The reason retention and concealment is not a big deal when we are out and about in our daily lives is because no one suspects we are carrying. If any of the students suspect you are carrying or even know you are carrying, it is going to make the situation very interesting. All it takes is one student to know and the whole school would know. So what would you do if the students knew you were carrying? How would that change the dynamic of the situation not only security wise, but as a teacher with the primary job of teaching.
Some of you who are not teachers don't think of the added component of teaching and being a classroom manager. Adding a firearm into the equation and being responsible for it is not as simple as us packing in everyday life. With little kids it wouldn't be such a bid deal. I am dealing with extremely immature high school students and lots of them.
Tell you what, I would be willing to give it a shot just for the sake of figuring out how it would change the classroom and my opinion of carrying in the classroom. Just let me say I am not that gung ho about it. Of course this is hypothetical and it will never happen, but hey, I am open to new ideas.
Better yet, I will make an assignment of this very subject next chance I get and I can get some student feedback for you as well.
California also has a CCW exemption rule, I just don't know what my school district says about my being armed. I keep meaning to figure it out, but again, there is more to teaching than just getting up there and talking and my time is limited.
Some of you who are not teachers don't think of the added component of teaching and being a classroom manager. Adding a firearm into the equation and being responsible for it is not as simple as us packing in everyday life. With little kids it wouldn't be such a bid deal. I am dealing with extremely immature high school students and lots of them.
Tell you what, I would be willing to give it a shot just for the sake of figuring out how it would change the classroom and my opinion of carrying in the classroom. Just let me say I am not that gung ho about it. Of course this is hypothetical and it will never happen, but hey, I am open to new ideas.
Better yet, I will make an assignment of this very subject next chance I get and I can get some student feedback for you as well.
California also has a CCW exemption rule, I just don't know what my school district says about my being armed. I keep meaning to figure it out, but again, there is more to teaching than just getting up there and talking and my time is limited.
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