Armed men approach your parked car

[1911 guy]

Mindset.

No, you can't live life stretched tight. You can, however, develope habits that lessen your liability. Watching mirrors, not stopping by choice in an inconvenient place, etc. I truly do feel sorry for the couple.

The fellow should have left the engine running. Even with coffee and a little necking going on, the defrost could keep the windows clear. Also enable him to drop it in gear and drive over a thug or three on his way out.

If carrying, his chance to draw was while in motion exiting the car. Optimum? No, but neither is getting in the kind of situation they found themselves in.

My wife was raped about twelve years ago. I have decided a long time ago that I will be dead before ANYTHING happens to her again. Even if it's a no-win for me, she's my wife, I go down swinging. For this reason, I am never, and I do mean never, unarmed while in the company of my wife. At home or out, I have immediate access to several weapons, only one is non-lethal. With effort, it can become that way.

She's worth the effort.

 

[ilbob]

what do you want to bet this was not the first go round for these thugs?

they should probably have been executed a long time ago, and in a just and fair society that is what would have happened in this case.

 

[dfaugh]

If you're in a car, you're in control of at least a ton of metal that can move.

My sentiments exactly. I think too often, people that are armed, or have the ability to be, assume that that's the only possible response.

Your greatest weapon is between your ears. You are never defenceless. (Even when standing around in your boxers.) The element of surprise (and agression) is pretty powerful....When the BGs THINK you're helpless, moving aggresively TOWARDS them, just throws them completely off.

Maybe its just my "mean streak" showing, and maybe I'll catch (another) bullet someday....but it won't be for lack of trying.

 

[1911 guy]

I agree.

Even if it's a losing proposition, it's better to slug it out than stand around and be a deliberate victim. Most criminals are in it for an easy mark. I'm not so easy. When violence is called for, restraint shouldn't be in the discusion. We should do all we can to avoid violence. When the situation is forced upon us, we should seek to do the most harm in the shortest possible time. You'll wind up in a courtroom whether it's "clean" or "dirty". Braining someone with a tire iron is just as effective as with a .357. Just not as convenient.

This goes back to the original post. A person thinking about and taking responsibility for their own safety is never defenseless, as dfaugh said. If you are a threat to me and mine, my car, my handgun, any object short of a feather-duster, will be used against you. Bleeding sucks, but not as bad as watching your wife or girlfriend being abused. I'd rather bleed some.

Most of us will never know how dark this world can seem, when life is more a nightmare than a dream. Those of you who have survived a visit to the edge, I hope that you can understand this pledge. I promise I will always leave the darkness for the light, I swear by all that's holy, I will not give up the fight. I'll drink down death like water before I ever come again to that dark place where I might make the choice for life to end.

**Micheal Card**

The whole theme of the piece is choosing to struggle through life, never resigning ones self to failure or defeat.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Unfortunately, the best response to this is to roll the dice.

If you get caught with your pants down and a criminal already has a gun in your face through the window probably the best thing you can do is lock the doors (first), start the car, and bugger off.

You have to figure that a band of "teens" (indeed, most criminals not whacked out on something) won't shoot you on the spot because you aren't giving them what they want. The gun is a threat but if they shoot you they understand that it's pretty much guaranteed that A) they'll have to run away immediately, and B) there will be a lot more heat on them.

I've foiled armed robbery twice by telling the perp to eff off, in no uncertain terms. What are you going to do? Shoot me over the forty bucks I have in the register? You're on camera already, go home.

Ditto with the car. Chances are slim that the creep will actually shoot you, and if the car's already moving chances are even slimmer that your garden variety punk will be able to hit you even if he does get off a couple of shots. Think he'll account for the deflection through the glass?

Easy to say, harder to work up the balls to do given the situation (and the surprise). Just pray you don't come up with snake eyes.

 

[sheckigreen]

.

 

[Tokugawa]

Surrendering to barbarians is a poor idea.

 

[quatin]

Drive away????

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9812/11/flame.thrower.car/

Watch the video and imagine someone coming up to your car and tapping the window. The theatrics alone is worth $655.

 

[crofrog]

RE firing a gun in a car.

I really hope you have ear and eye pro on when you do it too. Cause it's very loud, and flying bits of glass suck.

 

[1911 guy]

Flying bits and loud noises.

Yes, they are quite the nuisance. So is getting held at gunpoint, raped, possibly shot, robbed and any manner of no-good things. Gunfights suck, too, but we all own guns and are prepared to defend our loved ones. I'll take the noise and glass any day.

I've fired from enclosed spaces, and I'll do many times before I ever think of it as an obstacle to effectively defending that which is worth defending.

 

[paddling_man]

For me, ZESpectre said it best:

If a bad guy is a non-shooter (essentally "posturing" with their gun and has no intent to shoot) you can start the car and drive away because they won't shoot. Since the couple is alive the badguys were obviously non-shooters.

If a bad guy is a shooter then they probably plan to shoot you, either now as you try to escape or later after they've had whatever fun they were planning with you, your girl, your dog, etc. Personally I'd rather go trying to take 'em out and skip the "fun" part.

In the car? Drive away and take your chances. If they shoot, they were going to shoot you even if you did comply. Don't shoot? None of the horrific rape for this young woman.

I hope these thugs burn in hell.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Fortunately, the way I usually carry is very fast/easy to draw while sitting and seatbelted. If there was only 1 BG, I think I would have a pretty good chance of getting the drop on him. But more than 1 bg on opposite sides of the car is not a situation that I would want to try and shoot my way out of.

Multiple BGs, my first choice is to put the car in gear and pound on the gas. Heck, thats my first choice with even 1 bg. Even a fully justified defensive shooting is going to probably cost me time and $$, and if I can avoid it I will.

 

[Working Man]

I've always hated places like that...

never have felt safe there. If I want to sit and talk a nice cafe is just fine.

That being said when ever I'm in my truck my firearm is in a position that I
can get to it easily, I just have to replace it in my holster when I get out.
Once I have my lock box bolted in then I'll have one just for the truck that
way I don't have to unholster my CCW.

This whole thing makes my chest hurt.

Key point #1... be aware of who/whats around you. They should not have
been able to get to the car unnoticed.

Key point #2... cars make great weapons. Leave the keys in the ignition at all
times while you are parked and still in the vehicle.

Key point #3... If 1 and 2 go out the window then you have a choice to make...
one you should have already have made at some point earlier in life....

One should know that these people intend to bring all sorts of evil down upon
them.

So I say there are worse things than death and I have learned that the choice
comes down to do you want to live or do you want to win? Living does not
always mean winning but living usually follows winning. When you try to escape
you leave yourself vulnerable at times that may cost you your life. You are
looking for the out and not the win. If you try to win at all costs.... even if
you die they probably won't win.... and thats good enough for me.

So thats what I would do in that situation.... fight like hell to win till I do.
Call me an armchair commando if you like, it wont change what I'll do.

 

[crofrog]

I'll take the noise and glass any day.

Taking glass frag into the lungs and the eye's can severly diminish your ablity to carry on the fight. Specially into the eye's as shooting a firearm in 100% dependent on your vision.

Simply saying you will take glass any day is fool hearty. The question should be what can I do to mitigate the risk of shooting a gun in an enclosed space.

In this case there are a few solutions that minimize and reduce the problem.

1) Wear eye-pro. I always keep on a set of nice oakley half-jackets when I'm driving. Including at night. Iridum lenses for the day, clear lenses for night.

2) Leave a window cracked, this will reduce over pressure in the car.

 

[Caimlas]

Man, what a horrible story. I hope the firefighter and his girlfriend managed to work through that horrific situation.

As for my personal stance on things like this, two things:
1) You are most vulnerable while out in public while you are in a car, whether it's moving or parked, due to the blindspots and confined movement you put yourself in. Vehicles are also almost always in areas which make for an easy getaway and have a lot of comotion going on already where there are very strict mentally-ingrained 'rules of operation' in terms of vehicle safety - busy streets and parking lots - so not many people will even notice anything out of odds like this.
2) If someone is pointing a gun at me, I am going to assume they intend to kill me, sooner than later. My perception is that the more attackers there are, the higher this likelyhood goes up (ie more at stake if a person gets away, and in today's world Islamic terrorists). The sooner I act - whether it be running away or returning the favor of agression - the higher my likelyhood of survival is.

As I've got kids, the only time I could morally levy the first option - running away - would be when I'm alone. If I'm with family, I've got to fight: I've got two young kids. For me, that means initially giving the perception of compliance - so I can get out of the car, move over to the passenger seat, etc. so I can maneuver to unholster my weapon, take/remove their's (weapon retention is much more difficult than weapon disarment when you're not expecting it), or otherwise cause them to reconsider their options. In my mind, easily property is not worth dying or killing over, in and of itself, and I'd say unless they're armed, they'd be free to go home (or jail). However, if you bring violence or threat of violence to me or my family, there'll be hell to pay.

 

[Duramaximum]

.

 

[ctdonath]

1) Wear eye-pro.

That's one reason I wear glasses instead of contacts. Eye protection is always on.

(The corollary, hearing protection, is a growing interest: just got a silencer, and intend to eventually have one for (if not always mounted to) each gun. A little difficult for the given situation, but at least in consideration.)

 

[yongxingfreesty]

dont think they coulda done a thing, wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Jeff White]

Moderator Hat On

I've had to edit political commentary from several posts. This is the Strategies and Tactics Forum and Political Comments are OFF TOPIC!

If you don't have anything on topic to contribute to the thread, don't click reply. It's really that simple.

If the subject is one you feel the need to make a political comment on, then feel free to start a thread (if there isn't one already) in either General Discussion or Legal and Political.


Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Headless]

I think some of you guys may overestimate your car's ability to crank up, be placed in gear and then gain enough speed to outrun a person who is already standing at your window. Try it with a friend sometime.
Cars have momentum...even revving the engine hard on the average corolla or camry and kicking it into first rather than Drive is going to give the BG several seconds to shoot you and your passenger repeatedly.
Cranking my car takes a second.
Shove it in gear. 1 second.
Accelerate past the 6-8mph someone can run...another second.
3 seconds? I can fire an entire mag of 14 rounds in well under 3 seconds, and at 2 foot range when a vehicle is not even yet moving, you and your passenger are going to take hits.
As was mentioned, if you let the BG get up to your car with a gun in hand, and your engine is off, you are screwed.

In that situation, i'd hope i was carrying concealed on my person. If i was, i'd draw as i got out of the car, bending over to try and shield the action from the attackers and start shooting as soon as i got out the door. Hopefully the BG at the passenger side would shoot at me and not my passenger.
Unfortunately, my 5 shots of .38spl would result in my death in a 3 BG encounter i think, unless i got lucky. Hmmm. Time to start keeping the 9mm under the seat?! heh. I expect it's illegal to actually keep a firearm under my seat in a condition that would be useful in that scenario - in florida it must be 'securely encased' while in a vehicle.

 

[B.D. Turner]

We live in a dangerious world no doubt. Be aware of your surroundings at all times.
Train to watch where you are and how high your awareness level should be for each area. Some areas call for a higher awareness level than others. Getting gas in a bad neighborhood is better than running out of gas in a bad neighborhood.
If you have a CCW permit use your rights to use that permit.
Learn to make a weapon out of anything you can get your hands on. A distraction is a good as a weapon sometimes. Never ever put yourself at a tatical disadvantage.

 

[davhina]

I don't care how well armed or trained you are, sometimes you're just screwed.

I agree. Gun or no gun, these poor people, were unfortunately paying attention only to each other. Unless that vehicle's engine was running, they had absolutely no chance. Even had the engine been running, with a masked gun toting BG pointing his weapon at them,(pobably froze them) attempting to flee might have ended badly as well. Unless you are constantly aware of what is going on around you, a gun will be useless. It is a real shame what happened to them. Hope those guys rot in jail.

 

[DRZinn]

Just a thought:

I don't want to actually practice this, as it'd put a lot of wear on the car, but with a manual transmission, could you put it in gear and start it with the clutch out? It seems like the starter motor would provide enough force to move you out of the line of fire, then you could push the clutch in and let the motor start, having bought a little time.

 

[BigO01]

Sounds like a good reason to keep your car tuned up and in good running order , faster starts to get out of Dodge in cases like this .

Start it up and make a run for it I doubt many perps would start shooting as gunfire attracts attention which is the last thing they want . Breaking even a side window isn't as easy as many think . I saw an episode of cops where an unoccupied car was going around in circles in a parking lot , the officer hit the side window several times with his baton before he was able to break the glass and he looked like a pretty good sized guy that wasn't exactly a weakling .

 

[kungfuhippie]

with a manual transmission, could you put it in gear and start it with the clutch out?

Old cars, YES. New cars, probably not, they have a kill switch so you don't accidentally do that.

Back when I drove a bug and broke the clutch cable 5 miles from home I was able to do this from stops and shift by reving the engine to the right speed to match the vehicle speed and desired gear. But it'll kill your starter and battery in no time flat.