Armor peircing bullets
- Thread starter kestak
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scythefwd
Member
green tip is not AP.
When the USG surpluses AP ammo, they make an agreement to pull it into components rather than have it available for sale as ammunition. This wasn't always the case it's a more recent trend in the past 20 some years.
That's why you see the bullets for sale a lot more often than the ammo.
That's why you see the bullets for sale a lot more often than the ammo.
MtnCreek
Member
Yes; although not available to you and me.
This was made to increase the effective range of the M-16 rifle. Penetrate russian helmets / light body armor at longer ranges. It’s not classified as AP.
res45
Member
Actually there was a 5.56 AP cartridge back in the 90's but I'm not sure it's still in production. The steel penetrator tip is the most common that can be purchase loaded or as a component bullet.
M995 5.56mm Armor Piercing Cartridge
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m993.htm
M995 5.56mm Armor Piercing Cartridge
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m993.htm
tommyintx
Member
The m995 is a tungsten carbide penetrator armor piercing round for the 5.56/223, but is very expensive so the government doesn't stock very much of it, and as far as I know and have been told, the only place it is used is belted up for saw's for the army, and isn't often seen. It is heavily regulated just like the ap .308 variant m993. The older 30-06 black tip ap rounds aren't too hard to find, but are like the m855, a steel core, not tungsten, so very light ap. The 308 you saw was probably loaded with the 30-06 black tips. This is seen alot on shady auction sites like gunbroker.
243winxb
Member
5.56mm (5.56 x 45 mm) Ammunition
All 5.56mm Rounds with powder used to load here > http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
All 5.56mm Rounds with powder used to load here > http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
AP bullets available here. www.polygunbag.com Inventory changes constantly, so check frequently or call them. I've bought a LOT of bullets from them, they're good to deal with.
longdayjake
Member
Here is a little inside knowledge.
The original ss109s that came from IMI were in fact tungsten core bullets. I bought a bunch way back when. I actually recovered a bunch of the cores from a flat surfaced lava rock that I was using for practice. They had NO deformation at all. I shot the same rock with some new production lake city ss109 stuff and they too stuck into the rock and were recoverable. My guess is that the steel used in the current production ss109 is not a wussy soft steel like some suggest. Those things are called penetrators for a reason and I have done quite a bit of penetrating with them. They go right through railroad ties stacked back to back. They don't like to stop at all.
Back when 5.56 was relatively new to the military they made a 55 grain AP black tip bullet which was just a solid steel core. I have found a few here and there in the surplus bullets that I sell. The only thing different about the 55 grain AP and the 62 grain ss109 is that the 62 grain ss109 bullet has a lead tail on it. The steel cores are pretty much the exact same size in the 55 grain AP and the 62 grain SS109. The lead piece at the end increases the weight of the bullet and its ability to fragment into pieces. So, theoretically the ss109 bullet should be more effective at both penetration and terminal effects because it adds a little foot poundage and incorporates fragmentation that the 55 grain bullet did not offer. A lot of guys don't think too highly of the ss109 but it is a lot better than just a solid steel core from a .223 bullet. Granted, I sell a lot of them so my opinion may be a little biased.
The original ss109s that came from IMI were in fact tungsten core bullets. I bought a bunch way back when. I actually recovered a bunch of the cores from a flat surfaced lava rock that I was using for practice. They had NO deformation at all. I shot the same rock with some new production lake city ss109 stuff and they too stuck into the rock and were recoverable. My guess is that the steel used in the current production ss109 is not a wussy soft steel like some suggest. Those things are called penetrators for a reason and I have done quite a bit of penetrating with them. They go right through railroad ties stacked back to back. They don't like to stop at all.
Back when 5.56 was relatively new to the military they made a 55 grain AP black tip bullet which was just a solid steel core. I have found a few here and there in the surplus bullets that I sell. The only thing different about the 55 grain AP and the 62 grain ss109 is that the 62 grain ss109 bullet has a lead tail on it. The steel cores are pretty much the exact same size in the 55 grain AP and the 62 grain SS109. The lead piece at the end increases the weight of the bullet and its ability to fragment into pieces. So, theoretically the ss109 bullet should be more effective at both penetration and terminal effects because it adds a little foot poundage and incorporates fragmentation that the 55 grain bullet did not offer. A lot of guys don't think too highly of the ss109 but it is a lot better than just a solid steel core from a .223 bullet. Granted, I sell a lot of them so my opinion may be a little biased.
SonicmetalicS
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I thought possession of armor piercing ammunition was a felony?
medalguy
Member
Only for pistols and I believe only in specific areas.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Actually, the .223 bullets used in current military 62 grain SS109 ammo have bullets with hardened steel "penetrator" in tip. In reality a .223 bullet is so light it's really hard to get them to go through armor like you could a 150gr 308/30-06 bullet. Those .223 bullet I saw online a while back did have green tips.
MtnCreek
Member
Jake,
Open up a m855 and compare the penetrator to the one shown in post #8 (m995). It is not the same. The m855 was designed for Ivan’s helmet.
Open up a m855 and compare the penetrator to the one shown in post #8 (m995). It is not the same. The m855 was designed for Ivan’s helmet.
HK SD9 Tactical
Member
It is not against the law to posess AP ammo on the federal level. State laws vary so be aware of them. Most rifle ammunition is AP (even though it is not designated as AP) by virtue of velocity and penetrating factors. The term AP does not apply to the cartridge, but rather the BULLET. It is against Federal law to load any AP bullet/cartridge into a pistol. Doing so will garner you a $250K fine and 10 years in the pokey if you are caught. BATFE takes this very seriously and prosecutes to the fullest extent of the law. You are GUILTY until YOU prove you are not guilty.
Elite Ammunition was recently raided because they produced some bullets that could be classified as AP and were designed for loading into a pistol cartridge (5.7x28mm).
longdayjake
Member
If all you are looking to do is punch through a helmet, a measly 55 grain FMJ will do it at 500+ yards.
I have opened up plenty of them and depending on the maker the penetrator is all kinds of sizes and shapes. The IMI stuff looked exactly like the m599. I have seen quite a few of them. I don't know if IMI still makes them that way. I wish I would have taken pictures before I threw them away.
longdayjake
Member
The owner of EA had probably done something we don't know about to draw attention to himself. All he did was make solid brass bullets for 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc, and .223. Barnes has been doing that for a long time and the ATF has left them alone. The owner claims that he was raided because those calibers can be put into pistol AR's and solid brass bullets are defined as AP according to the ATF.
MtnCreek
Member
Ivan's got a pretty thick skull.
The few that I’ve opened up were shaped like a cylinder, with the leading end being more narrow than the rear portion and the dia of the penetrator was a good bit less than .224. Lead made up the difference in dia around the penetrator. These were US pull down.
HK SD9 Tactical
Member
You are probably correct. It could be the the threat of a friend in NSA who would do his bidding for a few boxes of ammo, it could be that he proclaimed that his special bullets could penetrate many many layers of kevlar, it could be RH, it could be (the list goes on and on...)
You are correct about the Barnes Banded Solids. I wrote to the ATF to get clarification on whether this was considered an AP bullet if loaded into the FiveseveN pistol. The determination came back as not AP because it was "machined from a homogenous copper/zinc alloy, not beryllium copper, therefore not classified as armor piercing as defined". Go figure....., I still think that it is brass.
Sounds like EA was trying to use the Barnes as a basis for their new projectile and I'm pretty sure that is what drew all the attention to them from the ATF.
C'est la vie.....
This is a 3/4" thick railroad tie plate that I shot with surplus .30-06 AP, there's a couple of penetrators that got stuck. Those don't look like steel to me. Tungsten? Whatever they are, they sure beat the snot out of those plates!
barnetmill
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In WWII most AP ammo was made out of hardened steel. I am not sure what the 30 CAL and 50 Cal projectiles were made out of, but they are considered to be very hard and also to be very effective AP rounds. The 30-06 was given a black tip for that purpose. I did once ended up yrs ago with some mild steel core 30-06 ammo loaded in 1940 in 5 rd stripper clips. It was not marked with a black tip.
You are getting confused with the cheap chinese AK steel core that the ATF has classed as armor piecing, but was made out of mild steel most likely because it was cheaper than lead core and it is still a good combat bullet. It glances off things and keeps going.
longdayjake
Member
thats a cool pic.
Mike1234567
member
This is a 3/4" thick railroad tie plate that I shot with surplus .30-06 AP, there's a couple of penetrators that got stuck. Those don't look like steel to me. Tungsten? Whatever they are, they sure beat the snot out of those plates!
I wonder what those ultra-hard projectiles are doing to your rifling.
45lcrevolver
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- Jul 27, 2011
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Is it illegal to use ap rounds in a 223 pistol. Or is it just handgun calibers like a 7.62x25 per say?
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