armor piecing "military bullets" in Austin area, Texas report

[benEzra]

No, that's not how it's written exactly.

If you can shoot it in a handgun at all AND it's of a specific construction, it's AP:

Quote:
a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;
Then, for other ammo types, it has to be INTENDED for use in a handgun, so that excludes most rifle ammo types. There is an "or" between these sections.

Quote:
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
M855/SS109 doesn't meet either of those definitions.

Actually, the BATFE does consider .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, and .308/7.62x51 to be pistol calibers for the purposes of the law. M855 is exempted not because it isn't considered handgun ammo (it is, by the BATFE), but because it's not AP. M855 is just regular ball, and actually penetrates less than M193 at close range.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Actually, the BATFE does consider .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, and .308/7.62x51 to be pistol calibers for the purposes of the law.

What statute do they reference for that? Got a link to whatever it is they published on the subject?

18 USC 921(a)(17) doesn't leave them room for anything like that it doesn't appear. I know they love to make things up as they go, but that seems a pretty difficult argument for them to make.

The entire Federal law on the subject:

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The list and exemptions are on page 166 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. It does not state specifically why M855 is exempted, just that it is.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

[TexasRifleman]

It does not state specifically why M855 is exempted, just that it is.

Seems to me they put the specific names in there just to avoid any misunderstandings. M855 clearly doesn't meet the definition in the US Code.

I still don't see anything about them stating that .223 and .308 are "handgun" rounds for the purposes of AP definition.

They get a lot of it because of the "sporting purposes" in 922 as well.

ETA: I know I'm nit picking but this story happened in Texas so I'm watching it closely.

 

[Art Eatman]

I'd be willing to bet real money that the cop doesn't know much about firearms and ammo. Odds are, since the ammo wasn't hollow-point or lead-tipped, it likely was GI Ball ammo--and thus taken to be "armor piercing".

Which is legal in rifles in Texas.

None of which has much to do with the idiot's behavior, which comes under the heading of "Plumb stoopid".

As near as I can tell, the reasoning behind Texas law has to do with reality: Whether AP or other loading, a rifle bullet is gonna do Bad Things to a person who's with or without some sort of body armor. Since the odds are that body armor can only protect against handgun bullets, AP for handguns is a no-no.

 

[fatelk]

A little different direction here, but is it illegal to posess ap handgun ammo? I was told that the law prohibited manufacture and sale, but not posession.

I have a box of old czech 9mm steel core ammo in my collection somewhere. Do I need to dig them out and dispose of them?

Or is this specifically a Texas law?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Here is the description of CZECH AP ammo:

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured
9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition
having an iron or steel bullet core. Identified
by a cupronickel jacket and a head
stamp containing a triangle, star, and
dates of 49, 50, 51, or 52. This bullet is
attracted to a magnet.

Possession is not prohibited at the Federal statute level. There are special requirements for the importation and sale of the ammo, but not possession. Federal sentences go up if the ammo is used/possessed in connection with a crime being committed, but you won't have to worry about that....

Going off to look at Oregon law now.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You are good to go in Oregon so long as the ammo is not intended or used in the commision of a crime:

http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html

166.350 Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition if the person:

(a) Makes, sells, buys or possesses any handgun ammunition the bullet or projectile of which is coated with Teflon or any chemical compound with properties similar to Teflon and which is intended to penetrate soft body armor, such person having the intent that the ammunition be used in the commission of a felony; or

(b) Carries any ammunition described in paragraph (a) of this subsection while committing any felony during which the person or any accomplice of the person is armed with a firearm.

(2) As used in this section, “handgun ammunition” means ammunition principally for use in pistols or revolvers notwithstanding that the ammunition can be used in some rifles.

(3) Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition is a Class A misdemeanor. [1985 c.755 §2; 1987 c.158 §29]

From the looks of it, the ammo would have to be Teflon coated to meet the statute anyway....

 

[The Highlander]

Not to break away from the subject at hand, but what was that so-called cop killer round that was teflon coated and expanded/broke up into very sharp pieces? I remember hearing something about the risk of EMT's getting their gloves cut on bullet fragments and possibly contracting HIV/AIDS and other blood-borne pathogens from the victims. Could have just been some sensationalist article.

As for the guy in the article he sounds like a nut. Belongs in some mental hospital on meds not on the street with an AR-15. The kids were being stupid too, but they're probably all kinds of traumatized.

 

[Iansstud]

black talons?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Could have just been some sensationalist article.

Yes, that was complete BS. In fact, the ammo is still sold, just with a name change really. Some minor differences but Ranger SXT ammo is Black Talon.

No law was ever passed about the Black Talons, they were pulled for marketing reasons. They still show up for sale now and then at silly prices.

 

[The Highlander]

That's it! Thanks for the info guys.

 

[rondog]

The man was a fool, and is in deep doo-doo, which he deserves. Definitely an unstable individual, who doesn't need access to guns. JMHO.

As far as A/P ammo.....I have five boxes of old .30-06 black-tipped a/p milsurp ammo, those aren't illegal are they? I'm in Colorado, FWIW.

And I just don't understand the "a/p handgun ammo" thing. If a "bulletproof" vest will stop regular FMJ handgun rounds, why wouldn't it stop "a/p" handgun rounds? They're not any more powerful than standard handgun ball, are they? Handgun ammo can only be so powerful, I don't see how the bullet composition would make that much difference against body armor.

I don't see how handgun ammo can be "a/p" anyway, there just isn't the power behind them to punch through armor. Now, .30-06/.308/.223/7.62 is another story. If I'm missing something here, please fill me in!

 

[TexasRifleman]

As far as A/P ammo.....I have five boxes of old .30-06 black-tipped a/p milsurp ammo, those aren't illegal are they?

Those are specifically excluded in the US Code.

 

[JellyJar]

Many years ago on that COPs show some police in some north east city caught a suspect with a tech 9. They then said that it was loaded with teflon coated cop killer ap bullets. I got a good look at one round the officer held up to the camera and I could clearly see that it was some nylon clad lead core ammo! Totally non AP!!!

Just because someone is a LEO doesn't mean they really know much about guns and such.

If what is alleged that the man did, chasing and threatening them with a firearm, he deserves to be convicted of a felony and loose his guns rights completely!

 

[benEzra]

What statute do they reference for that? Got a link to whatever it is they published on the subject?

18 USC 921(a)(17) doesn't leave them room for anything like that it doesn't appear. I know they love to make things up as they go, but that seems a pretty difficult argument for them to make.

They simply reclassified the most popular intermediate rifle calibers as "handgun ammunition" via an encyclical in February 1994, if I understand correctly, and I think this initial move preceded the modification of the original 1986 law by Congress in September. The initial excuse was the production of an AR pistol by Olympic Arms chambered in 7.62x39mm, which gave them an excuse to ban further importation of steel-core 7.62x39 as "AP handgun ammunition."

Rundown on the law post-September 1994, by Bardwell:

http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/armorpiercing.html

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
be AP ammo.

However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type
bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its
weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 bullets are not covered,
because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead
is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead
are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not
covered.

And how it all started (the Oly Arms OA-93 prototype):

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

and

http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

It appears BATFE has taken the position that if there is a handgun chambered for a particular rifle round, then the BATFE can restrict ammunition in that caliber to non-AP as defined by the law, but to this point they have only chosen to do so for so-called "assault weapon" calibers.

I do not know what the specific regulations are, but I suspect the BATFE takes the position that all "handgun" rounds fall under published regulations concerning AP handgun ammunition, and that "handgun ammunition" is any round that any handgun on the market is chambered for, if they say it is.

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's exactly what I said in my post #25.

If you can shoot it in a handgun AND it's made of the 'exotic' materials, it's AP.

But ammo falling under the definition (ii) ATF cannot randomly call it handgun ammo, it must be INTENDED for use in a handgun. Granted that's a pretty rare ammo. I'm not sure I know of any that meets definition (ii).

Bardwell says the same thing I said. "for purposes of bullets covered by (B)(i)"

The question was asked in post #23 "Stupid question, but isn't there a federal law/ATF regulation against having AP rounds, and if there is a pistol that fires them, they define them as pistol rounds?"

And, like I said and Bardwell says, that is only true for (i) type of bullets, not for (ii) type. Again, a hypothetical discussion because I don't know of a type (ii) bullet.

And then Bardwell continues in the construction section to say what I said, that M855 cannot possibly meet the definitions of the US Code for AP, whether it can be used in a handgun or not, because the bullet construction type doesn't meet either (i) or (ii).

M855 doesn't have a core made entirely of steel. Only the penetrator is steel, so it seems like there would be no way for them to class that as AP even if they wanted to. I think anyway. My guess is that since the core is half lead and half steel they don't want to challenge it. And, like several have said, the SS109 bullet's armor penetration capabilities are pretty much the same as any other FMJ. Bardwell comes to the same conclusion "Thus SS109/M855 .223 bullets are not covered,
because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. "

So the fact that ATF was "gracious" enough to exclude M855 is silly, they didn't have a choice.

And like I said, I know I am being nit-picky but this particular case is something I'm gonna be watching. Some random jury decides that M855 is AP at a state level I'd like to know about it. That would have huge implications for gun owners in Texas. I'm guessing M855 is what was in this rifle. I still think the DA will just drop the prohibited weapon charge.

Because Texas only defines AP as " handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers." I just don't see any way the DA can make that leap if it was M855 in this rifle. But I'm paranoid enough to worry about it

 

[Douva]

Nope. You are probably thinking of soft body armor and while probably most rifle calibers (fired at full velocity) will penetrate soft body armor, soft body armor isn't a standard for what is or is not armor piercing. Generally speaking, armor piercing ammo is designed for the purpose of penetrating hard armored or fortified targets.

I believe there is a difference between the way the military defines "armor piercing" and the way most states define "armor piercing." Most of the "armor piercing" bullet laws came about in the '80s and early '90s, during the scare over "Teflon coated bullets" (which, unlike regular bullets, won't stick to fried eggs). The concern raised by The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence (then known as Handgun Control, Inc.) was about "cop killer bullets" (that never actually killed any cops)--super-hardened handgun ammunition designed for penetration and capable of penetrating the soft body armor worn by most police officers.

So, whereas "armor piercing" in the technical, military use of the term, pertains to ammunition designed to penetrate hard armor, "armor piercing" in the penal sense typically refers to certain types of handgun ammunition that can penetrate soft body armor.

The "designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating" wording in the Texas penal code is an important safeguard against prosecution for the possession of standard handgun ammunition that might, under certain circumstances, be able to penetrate low-level soft body armor.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So, whereas "armor piercing" in the technical, military use of the term, pertains to ammunition designed to penetrate hard armor, "armor piercing" in the penal sense typically refers to certain types of handgun ammunition that can penetrate soft body armor.

I have standard ball handgun ammo that will penetrate soft body armor. In fact, penetrating soft body armor is pretty meaningless unless you stipulate what is meant by soft body armor. I have handgun ammo that will easily go through a I and a IIa vest, but won't go through a II or IIIa vest. I might have some that will go through a Level II vest, but I would have to recheck. It is all just regular factory ammo. You simply need to find ammo for which the vest isn't rated and you can therefore have ammo capable of penetrating the vest. It all depends on the level/rating of the vest.

 

[destroyerbear]

they are talking about bullets that hav a steel core instead of lead or watever else. that is why they call it armor piercing because the steel pierces the armor whereas the lead would just smash up against it denting it.

 

[Douva]

I have standard ball handgun ammo that will penetrate soft body armor. In fact, penetrating soft body armor is pretty meaningless unless you stipulate what is meant by soft body armor. I have handgun ammo that will easily go through a I and a IIa vest, but won't go through a II or IIIa vest. I might have some that will go through a Level II vest, but I would have to recheck. It is all just regular factory ammo. You simply need to find ammo for which the vest isn't rated and you can therefore have ammo capable of penetrating the vest. It all depends on the level/rating of the vest.

That was the problem with most of the "armor piercing ammunition" bans that came down the pike in the '80s and '90s. I believe it was Ted Kennedy who tried to push through a federal law that would ban any ammunition capable of penetrating low-level soft body armor. Fortunately, that legislation (which would have, effectively, banned all centerfire rifle ammunition and many common handgun rounds) was derailed.

That's also why the Texas law has the "designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating" wording. By including that wording, the legislature avoided criminalizing the ownership of common handgun rounds capable of penetrating low-level body armor.

 

[lasinvegas]

Partially off subject, but wouldn't the other warrant from 1994 be out due to statute of limitations?

 

[FenderTK421]

waitaminute... I always thought the only REAL AP bullets had hardened core/penetrators. Isn't the teflon bullet thing pretty much a myth? Maybe based on some old bullets that had a teflon coating to prevent barrel wear, right?

 

[Art Eatman]

Fender, there were teflon-coated .45ACP rounds made, but for sale only to police. I guess the steel bullet inside the coating was shaped for penetration--which is not the usual strong point for the .45ACP when used on cars. The media found out about them and began yowling about "cop-killer bullets", even though none had ever been used against police--aside from the issue of restricted sales.

 

[JTH]

Then are the common military ammo rnds legal?

After all the info, are the common rnds. 9mm, 45cal., 7.62x39mm, .223 legal?
If not they sure have been selling a lot of illegal ammo at gun shows!