Army's new M17 and M18

[herrwalther]

BREAKING NEWS: 3 Privates and a Specialist have already figured out a removal for the anti tamper device. They are charging 3 cans of chewing tobacco for this service.

 

[JellyJar]

TimboKan said

"How is the gun neutered? There is zero reason that the individual solider would need to swap frames. Soldiers, with extremely rare exception, don't work on their own guns, so there is no particular need to give them the option to. I don't necessarily care for the screw, but its hardly a "neutering"."

Well I own a P320 and I remove the FCU every time I field strip it for cleaning. How else is someone supposed to be able to get to all the small nooks, crevices and such to clean it properly? It does no harm and it makes cleaning it a snap. To be able to remove the FCU for cleaning is a great feature.

Also, when I bought the weapon it only came with a small grip module and I swapped it out for a medium. No reason the average solider, airman, sailor or coast guard person can't do the same for themselves, no armorer needed. Look on youtube for videos of people changing out grip modules on the new Beretta APX, that is another story.

I have probably field striped it and cleaned it at least 15-20 times this year so far. No problemos amigo!

 

[.455_Hunter]

(vomits in mouth a bit...)

If I was still on AD and the M9s in my command were in good shape, I would tell the S4 and PBO that picking up the new M17s were their LOWEST priority.

I really had high hopes for the Army's new handgun, and I unfortunately dislike pretty much everything about the M17.

 

[hot chili powder]

The link below leads to pictures of the new M17 and M18 as they are being shipped to the first US Army unit...the 101st Abn Div

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/16/sofic-sigs-m17-m18-modular-handgun-update/

 

[hot chili powder]

Messed up that 1st post.....try again.....Wondering how much the Govt paid for the "fancy" cardboard "case" with deluxe foam liner??

 

[Panzerschwein]

Looks like a fine polystriker9 to stop the terrorizers.

 

[jjones45]

There are actually two of them. The one the Army is thinking about removing is the one that prevents removing the chassis from the grip module. Not being able to remove the chassis doesn't prevent the pistol from being field stripped and cleaned...do you remove the chassis when you field strip your 320. While switching out parts might be a concern, it is less likely than having someone remove the chassis and losing a part.

The second anit-tamper device prevents soldiers from removing the striker assembly. The Army isn't considering removing this one

Ok, I was thinking the anti tampering device was preventing field strip as well. Thanks for clearing that up. And no, I don't remove my chassis when field stripping my p320. Losing and changing parts must have been the reasoning then I suppose. I guess it makes sense when dealing with so many pistols in so many different hands. I'm sure there's a bubba or two in the army. One last question, is taking the striker assembly out of a p320 easier than other striker fired guns or something to you or some others? I can take the striker assembly out of all glocks, walthers, Rugers, M&p's, xd's, sigs, etc...... with no problem, just need a pin or punch in most cases. So once again, an unnecessary component to the p320. I hardly imagine guys taking the striker assembly apart and losing those parts in the field

 

[jjones45]

TimboKan said

"How is the gun neutered? There is zero reason that the individual solider would need to swap frames. Soldiers, with extremely rare exception, don't work on their own guns, so there is no particular need to give them the option to. I don't necessarily care for the screw, but its hardly a "neutering"."

Well I own a P320 and I remove the FCU every time I field strip it for cleaning. How else is someone supposed to be able to get to all the small nooks, crevices and such to clean it properly? It does no harm and it makes cleaning it a snap. To be able to remove the FCU for cleaning is a great feature.

Also, when I bought the weapon it only came with a small grip module and I swapped it out for a medium. No reason the average solider, airman, sailor or coast guard person can't do the same for themselves, no armorer needed. Look on youtube for videos of people changing out grip modules on the new Beretta APX, that is another story.

I have probably field striped it and cleaned it at least 15-20 times this year so far. No problemos amigo!

I remove my fcu for detail cleaning after A couple thousand rounds and it's been carried for a while, to get all that lint and debris out of those nooks and crannies you mention. I don't find it necessary to remove the fcu every cleaning, but I can't say it's a bad idea for those who do. Especially considering that the whole operation of the trigger is in that fcu, reset included. The p320 is the only striker fired gun I know of that resets in the rear of the trigger pull and doesn't use some sort of bar or disconnector to force a reset. I had concerns about that at first because while dry firing I could cause the dead trigger some were experiencing, but thousands of rounds later those concerns are gone

 

[JohnBiltz]

The Army has a scheduled maintenance program. There is operator maintenance after use. Then the Armorer will have a monthly, quarterly and annual series of checks and cleaning. There is of course paper work done when completed to show its been done. If I had to guess, I would say cleaning the firing pin channel would be annual maintenance.

 

[Speedo66]

I'm interested to know if it's the plastic frame that is serialized, like a Glock? If so, does the gun have three different serial numbers, or are they all the same number? Either way, it seems like a logistical nightmare.

Couldn't they just have had small attachable/detachable pieces instead to alter size? I guess cost is no object on gov't contracts.

 

[JR24]

I'm interested to know if it's the plastic frame that is serialized, like a Glock? If so, does the gun have three different serial numbers, or are they all the same number? Either way, it seems like a logistical nightmare.

Couldn't they just have had small attachable/detachable pieces instead to alter size? I guess cost is no object on gov't contracts.

The removable FCU has the serial number, not the frame. It was a sweet setup when I had a P250, but the xchange kits were always out of stock or way overpriced.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I don't know about a nightmare. It depends on how much emphasis the military gives to the frames. In terms of expense its really about the same as hand guards for M16s and with the M16A1 hand guards we used to go through a lot of them in an Airborne unit, probably several every time the unit jumped.

 

[herrwalther]

Couldn't they just have had small attachable/detachable pieces instead to alter size? I guess cost is no object on gov't contracts.

Retail cost for the frame itself is about $50. Buying in bulk and on a government contract, I bet that number to be much smaller for replacement frames. Which makes sense. If you have a busted up frame on a current M9 service weapon, you either have to deal with it best you can. Or replace the entire metal frame. Which is something most unit level armorers can't do or have the funds to do.

 

[rskent]

Why do I feel like I need to get one?

I need another polystriker9 like I need another hole in my head. Somehow, I still need to get one.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm interested to know if it's the plastic frame that is serialized, like a Glock? If so, does the gun have three different serial numbers, or are they all the same number? Either way, it seems like a logistical nightmare.

Nope, the 320 serializes the FCU only. What you are referring to as the frame is what they call a frame module...because it is just like a handguard or a sleeve; plus they are only about $50

Couldn't they just have had small attachable/detachable pieces instead to alter size? I guess cost is no object on gov't contracts.

That would defeat the whole purpose of the "modular pistol."

With the 320, you can go from Full to Carry to Compact to Sub-compact...and within each size, they offer Small, Medium, and Large. I would think in a government contract, different size frame modules are costing a lot less than $50...I wouldn't be surprised to hear $20

 

[Fiv3r]

I think it's also good point out that not only does it potentially fit the gun to the soldier, but offers a way to keep guns in rough and tumble environments proactively "like new".

A busted or warped frame from a nasty fall can be corrected within 2 minutes in the field. Those that question the longevity of polymer (I personally do not) no longer need to worry about how long it lasts compared to steel or if it somehow weakens with use. As long as the p320 sells, SIG will keep cranking out fresh frames.

On top of that, let's go a little more sci-fi. What about advancements in polymers in a decade? Perhaps a heat-proof, shatter-proof wonder plastic that cuts weight, cuts cost, and increases durability by some significant amount. Just mold them up and drop in the fcu.

That's not even going down the rabbit hole of on-site 3D fabricated frames.

Modular handguns could make a lot of sense if implimented correctly.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It also addresses possible issues with future caliber considerations and the 320 FCU is designed to accommodate different cartridges...you just change the barrel/slide/magazine

 

[Speedo66]

A few here have mentioned that the frames are "only" $50 or so, perhaps a little less via large scale contracts. I don't know if these frames are just stock items or not. Since any change in stock items the gov't buys seems to increase costs significantly, any reduction may be questionable. But we're still talking millions of dollars in the amounts the armed services will buy.

 

[Zerodefect]

Why would soldiers need to swap frames on their own and why is that a "complete joke?" Do you think the intent of a modular system is for the individual soldier to determine what size grip frame he/she desires to use on a particular day? And hey, have some sympathy for the armorers, they need job security too. "Neutering this gun?" Not hardly.

(And what's this "lol" stuff, what are we, a bunch of middle-school girls texting each other or grown-ups discussing weapons platforms?)

At any rate, if you'd read the article:
"However, the Army is considering removing this feature and replacing it with a standard commercial fastener."

LOLz.

I already have one of the 2 dot tools. At least it's better than an M9. I'd rather have a Glock 19.

 

[DT Guy]

I'd think the 'anti-tamper' gizmo is to TRY (a soldier can break anything, in my experience) to keep the heavily accounted for, serialized FCU in the grip frame until someone authorized to do so removes it. It lets a visual inspection ('Have you got your pistol, Private?') be more reliable.


Larry

 

[FL-NC]

Retail cost for the frame itself is about $50. Buying in bulk and on a government contract, I bet that number to be much smaller for replacement frames. Which makes sense. If you have a busted up frame on a current M9 service weapon, you either have to deal with it best you can. Or replace the entire metal frame. Which is something most unit level armorers can't do or have the funds to do.

If a M9 frame gets damaged it goes to the depot, and on to the scrap pile.

 

[FL-NC]

As far as that "anti-tamper" screw- looking at it, it seems like someone with less than average intelligence could make one with a small piece of mild scrap steel, a drill and bit, and 2 roll pins. Or maybe just order the tool from Sig. Which is exactly what I would do if I was issued one of these things.

 

[herrwalther]

If a M9 frame gets damaged it goes to the depot, and on to the scrap pile.

My point. Replacement cost for a metal frame is more than a plastic one. Especially a modular plastic without a serial number.

 

[rskent]

That's not even going down the rabbit hole of on-site 3D fabricated frames.

A 3D printed frame designed around a scan of an individual’s hand. Perfect ergonomics. I’m sure it won’t be long.

I need one.

 

[Aikibiker]

The reason for the anti tamper features is because the P320 has a small spring in the FCU and another in the striker assembly that can go shooting off into space if a moderate amount of care isn't taken when those parts are removed. Most fire arms owners will either exercise that care automatically, or just not bother taking those assemblies out of the pistol.

your average soldier however, especially when bored or frustrated will absolutely tear the pistol down as far as possible with no care taken not to lose tiny little parts under spring tension. Heck of the below average soldiers will try to have sex with their pistol.

Add in the fact that the P320 has had light primer strike issues especially during break in and you have yet another reason for Joe to monkey around with the thing. I have found that when soldiers find "weak" springs for some reason they immediately think the best way to fix them is to stretch the spring out to the point it is unserviceable. I would see it all the time with M9 magazines when sand would get into them and bind them up.

Of course I am being uncharitable when I saw soldiers. I was an armorer for a contract company and my marines, sailors, airmen, and cops did the same sorts of things.