Arrrgh! Frustration!!!! Someone help me out here...

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Powderman

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So, there I was out at the range for some quality practice time.

I had my duty rifle with me--Savage 10FP-LE2A, in .308.

I had some load recipes that duplicated the ballistics of the Federal GM Match .308 round--which is the round that we're issued for duty. It functions flawlessly out of the Savage, averaging .8 and .9 groups for 3 rounds at 100 yards. This time, I tried another powder for the practice load. Here are the specs:

Once fired Federal cases, trimmed to 2.000, chamfered and deburred, primer pockets uniformed and deburred.

Winchester primers,
45.0 grains Hodgdon BL(C)-2,
168 grain MatchKing
COL @ 2.800.

First round I fired locked the rifle up. I managed to get the bolt open, and saw evidence of gas leakage from the primer pocket. So, did I stop there?

Nope.

I fired another round. This one blew the primer out of the pocket, and pushed the ejector back into the bolt under pressure. So, it's getting fixed now--the rifle and bolt were otherwise not damaged.

I tried the same load in some other cases--Remingtons and Winchester cases, both on their 3rd loading. Same case prep, but in my M1A.

With both cases, I had to hammer the bolt/op rod open with a hammer handle. These were blowing primers, too!

So, here's my question...

1. Has anyone had problems with Federal rifle brass?
2. Has anyone had similar problems with BL(C)-2 in the .308? The charge I was using is a full 2 grains under the recommended max.

Help me out here, folks!!!
 
I hope 2 grains under max was not your starting load!

I seriously doubt it is the brass. You weren't by chance using a chrono were you?

I would have probably stopped at the first sign of overpressure with all due respect.

Ditch the BLC and try another powder working your way up.

Examine your reloading procedures again like sequence of the loading, scale accuracy, etc.

Thanks for sharing. Examples like this make for good learning.
 
Don't go any further without taking the ammo apart and checking it with a good scale. You obviously have too hot of a load. Federal primers are a little hotter than others and that might be your problem if your loading maximum loads.
 
Sublimaze, the starting load for BL(C)-2 in the .308 with the 168 gr. SMK is 44.0; I was only one grain above that. The starting velocity in the lab barrel was 2569.

As far as other loads go, I have used 40.0 of IMR 3031 (so-so results) 43.5 of Varget (excellent in the M1A) 42.0 of IMR 4895 (good results in both rifles) and 42.5 of IMR 4064 (ballistic duplicate in the Savage with the 168 MatchKing). This was far from my first experience with BL(C)-2; I have used it before in the .30-06 with excellent results.

Here's another point to ponder--I only fired a total of 4 rounds. I pulled the rounds apart, and re-weighed the charges--I believe I neglected to mention in my original post that all charges were hand weighed and not thrown. I verified these charges on two scales--an Ohaus 10-10 and an RCBS 5-0-5. All charges were exact at 45.0 grains.

So, what the heck?!? Any more suggestions, anyone?
 
Federal brass, especially .308 brass, has a reputation for being somewhat on the soft side. I've also heard several people say that the primer pockets become loose long before any other problems such as split necks render a piece of brass unserviceable. A lot of shooters I know either reload it once, or else trash it after the initial firing.

While I don't shoot much Federal factory ammo, I generally either recycle the brass after the first firing, or else use it for low-pressure cast bullet loads. After a total of five loads, even that goes into the recycle bucket.

Whatever the cause, 45.0 grains of BL-C(2) is obviously too hot for your rifles. The simple answer is - don't use that load! I realize that's not a very satisfying response, but it'll sure solve that particular problem!
 
More suggestions? Of course...

When you have to hammer the bolt open the load is WAY too hot. Don't fire another cartridge. If you must fire another cartridge, another locked bolt and a primer leak should be sufficient to tell you that you REALLY shouldn't fire another one. So how many of these dangerous cartridges did you fire? You're lucky to be in one piece and lucky to have your rifle in one piece if it is (you may have bent the M1A operating rod). You can get by many times with an overload in a bolt action rifle (not that I'm recommending it). If you play around with overloads in a semi auto, you're going to hurt yourself, someone else or your gun.

There is a tendency among handloaders to think that if velocity matches the velocity in a safe load listed in some manual that said velocity will indicate a safe load in another gun. Not true. Each load with a different powder needs to be worked up starting at a conservative powder charge. Then, watch for pressure signs and don't ignore them. A sticky bolt, pierced primer, a head separation in a new case, etc. are all signs of high pressure; ignore them at your peril. What the velocity is with the load is irrelevant.

An interesting experience I had. I have a T/C Contender and a Ruger Redhawk both chambered in 44 Remington Magnum. I have a load that is quite safe in the Redhawk that has sticky extraction in the T/C so even the same load that is safe in one gun won't always be safe in another.
 
Your load IS max in the Lyman 47th. Never had any trouble with their data...but you obviously are over the edge here. When your results tell you to back it down, you should listen.

Oh, when you prepared the primer pockets, did you notice that a lot of material was being taken out? Maybe those cases don't like that prep???
 
.308

Every rifle is different and every new jug of powder is different. Start light and work your way up. It's the only sure way.
I have an Israeli Mauser in 7.62 that shows high pressure unless I go 2 grains under the start load with both IMR 4064 and RL-15.
 
I don't know where you got your loads from, but I strongly suggest you get a couple more reloading manuals and check other sources. If you're using a powder company's website for your information, I suggest buying the books and getting information on loads from the bullet manufacturer's. Hornady, Lee, Lyman and Sierra all make excellent manuals. Get a couple, not just one and cross check.

Your rounds are saying you're loading way too hot, as they're flattening and blowing out primers and locking the action up. Listen to what they're telling you before you blow up your gun and/or hurt yourself.

Seriously,

Dave
 
I tried the same load in some other cases--Remingtons and Winchester cases...These were blowing primers, too!
Click to expand...

While Federal rifle brass does not have a great reputation, this tells me it was the load itself at fault. Doesn't matter what the books say, that was way too hot, probably neighborhood of 70,000 psi.

I woud not fight it. Shoot the BL-C2 in your '06 where you know it works ok and load .308s with one of the other powders. I use Varget but there is a lot of 4895 (both brands) and Reloder 15 burned, too.
 
Powderman:

You stated: "Sublimaze, the starting load for BL(C)-2 in the .308 with the 168 gr. SMK is 44.0; I was only one grain above that. The starting velocity in the lab barrel was 2569."

I was once working a load up for a .243 Ruger Model 77. The suggested starting load for W760 was giving indications of higher than acceptable pressure (difficult extraction, cratered primers, erratic velocities with some exceeding the velocities published for factory loads). That rifle simply did not like W760. Switched to Varget and had no over-pressure symptoms. Using Varget, that rifle is capable (when I am having a good day) of "one ragged hole" groups at 100 yards. Just because published data is supposedly a "starting load," there are too many variables. Every firearm is different. Trust what you see and experince when firing rather than what the loading manuals say.
 
44.5 gr of BLc2 is the max load in the Sierra #5 with their 165/168 gr bullets.
I would also suspect the COL of the load you are loading is maybe a bit too long. 2.80" is SAAMI`s max for the 308 and doesn`t mean it will not result in a bullet jammed in the lands.

I would hope the next time you have a problem with opening the bolt, flat primers, or signs of gas leakage, or any other pressure sign you will stop shooting and ponder what exactly is going wrong. It may save you eyesight or fingers.
 
Cut your load by at least three grains and work up from there. It is obvious that your load was too heavy for your rifle.

I believe I have heard from a number of sources that BLC is the same as W748. Having visited the Hodgens site, the load data for the 69 Sierra is identical, with identical pressures and velocities.

Many folks have used this powder with good results in the 308. So, just cut your load, and do your load development with a chronograph. If your loads are much faster than published values, then the pressures are too.
 
Are you crimping those rounds?

Can you measure the volume difference between the Federal Brass and Winchester brass?

Sounds more like a brass problem to me.
 
Did you accidentally use pistol primers? Or magnum?

Did you accidentally put the wrong powder in the hopper?

Did you accidentally contaminate the BLC2 powder with some other powder?

Did you accidentally use 200 grain bullets instead of 168?

With the greatest of due respect to you, I'm focussing on the possibility of operator error. Before we blame the components, the equipment or the manuals, let's make sure we didn't screw up. I've probably made every single possible mistake in my 41 years of reloading. We all do it.
 
Agree with Ants. There were several similar threads recently - the problem usually traces back to the powder. One guy bought full but not sealed can at a show; another (apparently) contaminated the powder.

Easy way to find out is to get a virgin canister and see if it solves the problem.

Mike
 
Powderman, you need to search on the term "overpressure signs".

I suspect that's what is happening and I'd advise you to stop whatever your doing and rethink things. Pull those rounds apart and take a hard and accurate look at what is going on.

This is the kind of stuff that will cause you to lose life and limb... seriously. If done improperly or with a cavalair attitude, reloading will kill you.

Reloading can be safe, but safety is in the hands of the reloader. Your first responsibility is to start 10% below maximum loads, increase by 2% and look for pressure signs. Obviously you didn't do that or measured incorrectly.

The fact you're even asking your question tells me you need instruction or dilligence in your processes. I'd recommend if you pursue your current path you shoot alone as to not harm anyone else around you. One overpressure load can be a given, but failure to recongnize what was going on and then firing another like round after that is ...... pure ignorance. Sorry, there's no other way to put it.
 
I'm loading my .308 with Varget at 41.0 max w/ 168g BTHP hornady, Win primers, and it seems to me the AR10 doesn't like it that much. It shoots execellent shots but I still dropped it back to 40.3gr. All my cases are pretty close to 2.015 and COL is about 2.7913. I'm not familiar with BL(C)-2 powder but it just seems 45gr in a .308 case is pretty high. I use 2 scales as well one is the Hornady balance scale and a Lyman electronic.

On a side note (sorry), everytime I weighed out my powder for the scales from the drop tube I would always lose grains. They looked like tiny popcorn coming out of the tray. I fixed it by cutting the middle out of a small paint spry lid and putting over the drop tube then turning the handle and dropping the powder in the pan. It worked until the static built up and powder started sticking to the plastic cover. I grabbed one of my wifes "anti-static" dryer sheets and nothing sticks to the plastic cap or in the powder measure any more. At least I'm getting accurate/consistent weights now. :)
 
Don't feel bad powderman! I was in the same shoes as you are. I question my reloads 1st. Then I took the gun to a gun smith and the solution was to clean the gun. Two cans of bore Breaker the smith had invested and I payed him $40.00. Weak fireing pin in the bolt. Jammed bullets, short cases for the rifle (but also in spec)
 
Powderman , why don't you try the same load at suggested powder start charge,in fed.brass without using the pocket uniformer tool and work your way. I ran into this with 7.62 LC match brass 1st. fire a long time back , the problem was the tool.
 
Doug and others, thanks for the advice--and the butt chewing. I needed that, I think.

I also believe that I'm through with BL(C)-2, at least for the time being. I have some RL-15 on the way, as well as 200 new Remington cases. I'll load these and post results.
 
BLC(2) is a great powder, I use it in .308, .223 and .204 Ruger. I actually like Federal brass and use it a lot but I think it's somewhat thicker than others - many of my loads developed in Winchester or Remington cases have to be backed off a little if I use Federal cases or else I get pressure signs. Likewise if developed in Federal cases they often start showing signs a grain or two below book max. You might simply back off a few grains and try again.
 
The charge I was using is a full 2 grains under the recommended max.
Click to expand...

Powderman,

Using what brass? It never ceases to amaze me that guys list loads without telling what brass they are using. Federal brass, as well as being soft, has much less case capacity than Winchester brass. If the load development in a reloading manual was done using Winchester brass, and you substitute Federal brass or milsurp brass, you will get much higher pressure.

Don
 
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