Yet another interesting situation...

[Powderman]

Went to the range recently, after deciding to work again on loads for the M1A. My plan was to use some once-fired brass to experiment, then load some new brass for verification.

The used brass consists of primarily Federal GM .308 brass, from a lot of 200 cases I had purchased some time ago. I loaded 60 rounds with 150 grain FMJBT and spitzers, on top of 43.5 grains of BL(C)-2 and Winchester primers. All of these cases had been fired once through my rifle; a old NM M1A.

Here's where the fun begins.

When loading, I noticed almost no resistance when priming the cases on a Dillon 650. I process the rifle cases like this: first, tumble and clean, then lube, size and deprime, then a second tumble to get the lube off. Case inspection, trimming, chamfering and deburring follows. They are then dumped into the Dillon case feeder and processed through.

Imagine my surprise when I got to the range. I loaded 5 rounds to a magazine to shoot for group. After firing the fourth round, I pulled the trigger and it went click instead of bang. After waiting to ensure that there was no hangfire, I carefully ejected the round. There, sitting on the magazine follower was the primer! It had fallen out, and was still live!

Now, here's the fun part:

On an impulse, I placed the primer over the pocket, and pressed gently. It went right in! I chambered the round and fired--it went off perfectly!

Out of that batch, two more primers fell out, both of them in the ammo box where that nice, fine grained BL(C)-2 made nice little piles of gunpowder.

Has anyone heard about Federal having problems with their brass?

 

[Big Daddy]

I haven't done much loading of .308 lately (or anything for that matter) but I have never used Federal brass. I use either Remington or Lapua, and occasionally surplus Lake City for plinker semi-auto loads. However, I read recently (here I believe) that many people said NOT to use Federal .308 brass because of quality. They did not say why, just that they felt it was crap. Could they have been "bench resters" where only Norma and Lapua will do? Perhaps, but it bears looking into. Search here for ".308" and "Federal" and see what you find.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I have quite a bit of Federal -06 brass and have had no problems with them. If the primers are dropping out I would think its time to toss the brass in the trash.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Interesting

- - - and lperhaps a bit distressing.

You don't mention the source of the brass. Do you know the person who fired it, or was it range pickup stuff? Reason I ask, might this have been some long range match ammo, fired thru a bolt rifle with heavy bullets?

Have you done any critical measurements of the case body, just ahead of the extraction groove? Have you checked for the internal annular ring, for signs of incipient case head separation?

All of which is pretty academic, I guess.

Humm - - I just re-read your post and noticed - -

All of these cases had been fired once through my rifle; a old NM M1A.

I trust your previous loading hadn't revealed any difficulties. This makes a difference, but I really can't figure the significance.

Please, share with us if you figure this out.

JPG

 

[Coltdriver]

I reloaded some .243 a wee bit on the side of too hot and it ruined the brass.

Primer pockets became too large to hold a primer. I keep it as a momento to my negligence.

Was the brass all yours so you know the history? If not perhaps the previous owner had it loaded a bit hot??

I always thought the primary way that brass wore out was that the lower case would thin from stretching as opposed to the primer pocket enlarging.

 

[Powderman]

Thanks for the input so far.

Here's what I have:

1. The brass is all BRAND NEW Federal Gold Medal .308. It was purchased new, and has been fired in only one rifle, my M1A NM.

2. The load used--43.5 grains, BL(C)-2--is almost 5 grains under the max load recommended for 150 grain bullets. The first loading was 42.5 grains, which was giving dismal results for accuracy.

3. Along with the Federal cases, I had loaded a small quantity of Winchester cases. These are now on their third firing; the brass is still well within specifications, with good primer pockets that give a good "feel" when seating the primer.

And yes, I loaded both cases with another bullet, too--the 175 grain MatchKing, with the same charge. In this case, the maximum load recommended for the same bullet is 46.0 grains, so I'm still well below the max.

This is what is so perplexing--there are NO signs of pressure, and the Federal cases are once fired in the same rifle. I haven't chronographed any of the loads yet, so velocity is unknown. Still, this is the type of problem that makes you shake your head in confusion--like loading a .45 ACP case with a "puff" load for Bullseye--3.5 to 3.8 grains under a 185 grain SWC--and having the cases go to crud after the first loading.

What makes it even more disturbing is the fact that I have used Federal brass for years! It is my go-to brass of choice for accurate, dependable loads, whether it's rifle or pistol. In fact, when I load for a Bullseye match, I have a hoard of Federal brass that I use exclusively for either lead bullets or hardball ammo.

So, back to square one--total, utter confusion. Any suggestions, or input?

 

[Darkside]

Powerman, Just courious, did you check the bolt face for pits. Several years ago I was loading Federal .308 match brass for my Remington PSS. After loading the cases twice, the primer pockets were very loose. Several of the primers had "leaked" and allowed the gas to pit the face of my bolt. FYI, my reloads have always be on the mild side.

Darkside

 

[taliv]

first thing i'd do is measure the ID on the primer pocket on any from the first batch and compare it to after they were fired, if you have any left.


if you really want to continue using that brass, you might consider applying some primer sealer. i'd guess that would have enough hold to keep the primers from falling out, but i'd ONLY do that if you're using them carefully. e.g. long-range match ammo, or benchrest. I'd certainly not rely on that if you're going to be carrying them around or handling them roughly.

 

[Bullet]

Powderman

I'd say you got some bad brass. Throw it away.

 

[bogie]

Possibly the heads weren't quenched properly.

I can enlarge the primer pockets on .220 Russian fireformed into 6PPC by going 5-10K over the SAAMI standard for 20ish firings. Just once is just plain bad. Send a note to federal, in a box with the cases...

Wait a minute... You didn't usea SRP in a LRP case head?

 

[JackM]

New unplated Winchester primers? They are on the small side, almost as if they didn't allow for the thickness of the plating. Try some Federal or CCI primers before you toss the brass.

Bye
Jack

 

[Powderman]

Bogie:

That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

JackM:

That's certainly an option. I will try it out! Thanks!

 

[Black Snowman]

There was a thread on ARFcom about Federal brass (yes even the match) being badly out of spec with heavy case walls and thin webbing causing just the problem you're talking about. Unfortunately the thread is out of the public search range now. I believe it was Steyr AUG who posted it. Even had cut-aways comparing the brass.