Powderman, if you're interested in 15 you should look up our fellow forum member called Ridgerunner. He has reported his EXTENSIVE testing with R15 in 5.56mm on another forum (1911auto). Good stuff. He can get better accuracy from 15 than any other powder thus far.
Arrrgh! Frustration!!!! Someone help me out here...
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jacobhh
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I don't even know if this is possible and I don't have the experience
with gas service rifles to back it up, but I know that if you don't
have enough gas pressure they will lock up and you often have
to bang them open. Could your primers be loose enough that the
primers are backing out soon enough to reduce port pressure to
the point that the action isn't operating? Possibly due to the way
you're prepping the primer pockets, or the primers are undersize?
with gas service rifles to back it up, but I know that if you don't
have enough gas pressure they will lock up and you often have
to bang them open. Could your primers be loose enough that the
primers are backing out soon enough to reduce port pressure to
the point that the action isn't operating? Possibly due to the way
you're prepping the primer pockets, or the primers are undersize?
mkl
Member
Speer #11 gives 42.0 grains as max for their 165 grain bullet, with a suggested start load of 38.0 grains.
The 168 grain match BTHP first appears in Speer #12 with a max load of 45.0 grains of Ball C(2). Interestingly, the Speer #12 still shows 42.0 grains as the max load for all four styles of thier 165 grain bullet.
Methinks 45.0 is too hot.
The 168 grain match BTHP first appears in Speer #12 with a max load of 45.0 grains of Ball C(2). Interestingly, the Speer #12 still shows 42.0 grains as the max load for all four styles of thier 165 grain bullet.
Methinks 45.0 is too hot.
Powderman
Member
I'm not too sure, but that may be a consideration.
As far as max loads, I will definitely research load data at my disposal. So far I have found two references--the Hodgdon website, and Lee load data--that post 47.0 grains as a max load.
USSR
Member
But with what make of brass? I just checked Hodgdon's website, and their load development was done using Winchester brass. Winchester brass is EXTREMELY light and has a very large case capacity. Federal brass has a much smaller case capacity, hence MUCH higher pressure. YOU CANNOT INTERCHANGE LOAD DATA WHEN USING DIFFERENT COMPONENTS!!!
Don
Can you explain that? The reason I ask is I pick up a lot of range brass, MMY (Russian), RP, Winchester, FC, PMC/PMJ, and CBC to name a few. I've reloaded all of them with 748 then Varget using 168gr BTHP Hornady, and Winchester Lg Rifle primers. My last batch of 300 were the same except with CCI primers and all of it mixed range brass, I loaded that batch with Win 748, (can't remember the grain but it came from the Hornady 7th ed at 2300 fps. This batch a mix of "new" range brass plus my reloads, about half/half. I've loaded them with the same Hornady bullets, with 40gr of Varget. COL is 2.7934~2.7956. and I'm using Winchester standard lg rifle primers. I run every cartridge thru the trimmer set at 2.015 and I check weight every 5th round.
My rifle is an AR10B .308 with 1:11.25 rifling and I shoot 1 10mag, 1 20mag, and 2 25mags. I didn't have any malfunctions in the 1st batch, 300 rounds and no problems with half the batch (150 rounds).
Is there something I should be aware of that I am not doing that I should be doing?
I still new to reloading and I use a Hornady LnL single stage with a lyman digital and Hornady beam scale.
USSR
Member
Sure. A brass case is designed to be a bomb, of sorts, to accept a rapid rise in pressure (60,000 psi) in milliseconds. Of course, instead of being completely sealed, it is deliberately made to release the pressure by pushing the bullet out of the neck. Case volume is one of the variables in determining how much pressure is generated. Using the same amount of powder in a brass case with a larger case capacity will (all other things being equal) generate less pressure. Think of setting off a firecracker in an empty 1 quart milk container as opposed to setting off the same firecracker in an empty half gallon milk container. Since the outside dimensions are the same (after FL sizing) with all .308 brass, the lighter brass will have a greater case capacity and generate less pressure. This is why Hodgdon's load is safe in Winchester brass but will be an overload in Federal, IMI, and milsurp brass. This is why the reloading manuals specify what brass was used in the loads they list.
Don
VenomBallistics
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Loading for 30-06, I separate out all the federal brass as it hits the redline before anything else.
Its the brass. just back off the charge a few more grains and establish a proper charge for your fed cases and all will be forgiven
Its the brass. just back off the charge a few more grains and establish a proper charge for your fed cases and all will be forgiven
86thecat
Member
I agree it's most likely the Federal brass, but it isn't military once fired brass is it? Thicker mil spec brass can cause pressure problems. Also have you checked distance to lands with that OAL in that rifle?
I understand the physics of the how/why but the variables are different with each cartridge you load. I found even as much as 2~3 grain differences between the manual,(Hornady) and what the manufacturer, (Hogadon) publishes on their web pages using the same cartridge/primer.
When I started reloading I did sort each mfg brass and I did resize each case then I went from low to higher. The only difference I was the shot placement on the target. Each round was sorted by manufacture yet they all fired the same pattern on the target. The rifle was sighted, strapped down, then fired with NIB Remmington 150gr FMJ bullets for comparison from the 100yd mark. Load range was from 38.4 to 41.3 grains in 10 shot groups. Again I didn't see or feel any difference between the manufacturer. I also collected all fired brass and kept them seperate. I checked each cartridge when I got home and saw no abnormalities.
Speer reloading manual mentions that all surplus/military brass has a reduced case capacity due to thicker case walls and recommends that start loads be reduced by 5% i believe.
I had the same problem recently with S+B brass that I was given, with a load that was fine in winchester brass.
On a side note, I love H322 in the 308/223!
I had the same problem recently with S+B brass that I was given, with a load that was fine in winchester brass.
On a side note, I love H322 in the 308/223!
The human mind thinks in terms of linear progression. That is, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, maybe 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, …. However the vast majority of phenomena is exponential. That is something like 1, 2, 4, 16, 256, 65536, 4294967296…
Smokeless propellants have an exponential pressure curve. Small changes cause exponential rates of growth.
So you have to be cautious when developing loads. Start at the low end, I use a chronograph to look at velocities, work your way up.
When you pierce and blow primers, you have exceeded safe limits. When bolt lift gets sticky, you have exceeded safe limits.
Maximum loads are different for each and every rifle. Very tricky.
Smokeless propellants have an exponential pressure curve. Small changes cause exponential rates of growth.
So you have to be cautious when developing loads. Start at the low end, I use a chronograph to look at velocities, work your way up.
When you pierce and blow primers, you have exceeded safe limits. When bolt lift gets sticky, you have exceeded safe limits.
Maximum loads are different for each and every rifle. Very tricky.
ForneyRider
Member
Isn't Federal brass a little small on the inside?
44gr might work with Rem or Win. brass. But lapua and others that have smaller internal dimensions might upset the recipe.
44gr might work with Rem or Win. brass. But lapua and others that have smaller internal dimensions might upset the recipe.
USSR
Member
Exactly, and Federal's soft to boot. You've got to take the components used in load development to mind.
Don
USSR
Member
Doug,
The only problem with the soft Federal brass is, the primer pockets enlarge long before any part of the brass hardens. On the other hand, you will find lots of it around as most guys don't want it.
Don
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