AR's - Windham?

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I have asked questions about specifics and have not received any answers. Usually when this happens, it is because the other guy doesn't actually know what all of the specifications are, and what differences they make.

That is my experience.

Well, it might be because nobody wants to respond to a thread jack only to have a response:
"you guys are wrong and you don't know anything, excuse me while I provide no data to substantiate my position, yet fault you for doing the same."

Talk specifically about Windham or start a new thread, please...that's a challenge.
What milspec features is a Windham rifle lacking that other rifles at the same price point have, and how do you expect those substituted commercial features to hamper operation, function, or reliability of the rifle?
Which milspec features does it not have that you feel to be indispensable, regardless of useage of the rifle?
Do you feel there are ANY military-specified features that have either no need or no logical place on a non-military modern sporting rifle?
If not,
Why does VLTOR offer a high quality upper without a forward assist? I thought forward assists were a milspec feature, and if it hampers function than my guess is VLTOR won't make it.

Are there studies, tests, literature, or articles that you can reference to lend support to your opinion?

If you can't at least help to answer those questions then I feel you are shooting from the hip with an opinion, with no real information to add to the thread. Remember, YOU came on here with a hypothesis that milspec is the only way to go on any rifle other than a "range toy". YOU are representing yourself as the person with the truth and correct answer, I feel that you have some obligation to provide your knowledge in this matter if you are going to hold it to be correct and others' in error.
 
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What milspec features is a Windham rifle lacking that other rifles at the same price point have

What is your budget?

Also, if you want some answers to this, you should go back and read the thread. Some specific examples are discussed.
 
What is your budget?

Also, if you want some answers to this, you should go back and read the thread. Some specific examples are discussed.

No there are not. You danced around some features such as 1x7 vs 1x9 in general for commercial vs milspec rifles, but you have not specifically addressed features that the windham rifles have or are lacking

"Starting with obvious things...

Do you want a barrel with a 1:9 twist rate, or 1:7? Or something else?

Do you want a commercial buffer tube, or mil-spec?

Do you know the differences between those two things? "


"How about barrel twist rate? Would you be better served by a 1:7 or a 1:9? Or maybe even a 1:12? Whichever one you answer...why?"

"Also, they are a different diameter so anytime you change the stock you need to make sure the new stock is the appropriate diameter. Naturally the better/best stocks might be available in mil-spec diameter but not commercial.

Be wary of the many unscrupulous vendors/manufacturers who will advertise their buffer kit as "mil spec" when it is not. Easy things to look for in an actual "mil spec" kit include a 7075 aluminum tube/extension and a heavy [H] buffer.

Also watch for little tricks that some manufacturers (like PSA) play, where they sell a "mil spec diameter" tube. Nothing is necessarily wrong with that, but I have spoken to a lot of people who read that as being mil-spec when it is not."

Those are the quotes, there is nothing there specific to windham weaponry features as asked by the OP.

Also, 1x7 is not the best all around twist rate unless you are in the military or shooting heavy bullets at long range. Most people would agree that 1x8 is the best compromise between versatility and bullet weight.
 
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No there are not. You danced around some features such as 1x7 vs 1x9 in general for commercial vs milspec rifles, but you have not specifically addressed features that the windham rifles have or are lacking

I didn't "dance around" so much as I pointed out some of the differences, some implications of those differences, and suggested that the OP do some research to decide what was best for him and his intended use(s).

Some examples discussed included barrel twist rate and buffer tube/receiver extension construction.

PS: Rifle twist rate (1:9 vs 1:7) and commercial receiver extension (not mil spec, meaning not 7075 with mil spec construction and diameter) qualify as specific features the Windham is lacking.
 
I didn't "dance around" so much as I pointed out some of the differences, some implications of those differences, and suggested that the OP do some research to decide what was best for him and his intended use(s).

Some examples discussed included barrel twist rate and buffer tube/receiver extension construction.

PS: Rifle twist rate (1:9 vs 1:7) and commercial receiver extension (not mil spec, meaning not 7075 with mil spec construction and diameter) qualify as specific features the Windham is lacking.


And how is that going to hinder the operation of the rifle, the reliability of the rifle, the funtionality of the rifle, or the enjoyment of the rifle experienced by the owner?
You still have not demonstrated or substantiated what you have been implying, that rifles lacking milspec features are only good for "range toys"

I'm done though, I'm reasonably sure I'm not going to get anything different. Each has their opinion, some can be substantiated, some can't.
 
I was looking at a Windham last week at AceHardware, for $859.00, nice gun . it was in white winter cammo, with an A-2 stock , I'm 99% sure that finish is not milspec , but so what , a 9mm is milspec dose that mean it's better than a 44mag ? I think not , ,

To the OP: I would not get hung up on milspec, all it is. "is mil-spec" , alot of after market stuff is better, (not all) and in some cases your Windham , or S&W or DPMS , or Stage, or ect,, ect,, it may not be as strong, but they may be lighter, so if you do drop it , it will hit the grown softer ,witch brings up another point , are you looking for a real light gun ? ? if so then stay away from milspec ,

everything I have read about the Windham's is good , I almost bought that one a AceHardware last week, as I too am looking for a lower end plinker,

and remember the BEST GUN is the the one that works best for you ,
HAPPY HUNTING AND GOOD LUCK <
 
And how is that going to hinder the operation of the rifle, the reliability of the rifle, the funtionality of the rifle, or the enjoyment of the rifle experienced by the owner?

Should I copy and paste what has already been said about twist rates and different rounds/cartridges/bullets?

Should I copy and paste the discussion about aftermarket stock availability?

They are differences between the rifles that might negatively affect the enjoyment, effectiveness, or utility of the rifle, depending on what the owner/operator wants.

Which is why I suggested, at the very beginning, that the OP do some reasearch to better understand what the differences are and how they might (or might not) affect him, then make an informed decision.
 
Should I copy and paste what has already been said about twist rates and different rounds/cartridges/bullets?

Should I copy and paste the discussion about aftermarket stock availability?

They are differences between the rifles that might negatively affect the enjoyment, effectiveness, or utility of the rifle, depending on what the owner/operator wants.

Which is why I suggested, at the very beginning, that the OP do some reasearch to better understand what the differences are and how they might (or might not) affect him, then make an informed decision.

Maybe you should, it would look better for your argument than another
"im right and you are wrong, and thats just how it is" post.

You are making this into a discussion that has NO bearing on the OP's question. Are you stuck in a world where everyone NEEDS the ability to shoot 77 grain .224 bullets? Where a modern sporting rifle MUST be able to stand up to the same combat conditions our Army's issued duty weapons do? A world where milspec automatically adds years and thousands of rounds to a rifles service life? A world where a commercial quality rifle CANNOT be reliable and is guaranteed to fail in moments of need?

You tell the OP to do some research and make his own decisions, then imply to him which decisions he should not make because they "aren't milspec" :rolleyes: Not that they aren't strong enough, or that they won't do what the OP needs them to do, no...."they aren't milspec".

Yet nothing he has said implies that he needs what benefits milspec does bring to the table.

Why should he spend that extra money for milspec?
I will agree with other posts, paying extra for most "milspec" features is a waste of money for most people, yet for most people (civilians) who have milspec guns, its all about "peace of mind".....which for most is really another way of saying "not going to be needed but nice to talk about with your buddies"

I've seen you banging the milspec gavel in enough other threads to feel that you have more of a happy, glowy feeling for the term than a working knowledge of its benefits (and the actual value of those benefits to people other than yourself) over commercial parts.


FYI the gun I'm building right now is going to be "milspec", its going to cost more than the one I'm building that isn't "milspec", That extra cost is 99.9% sure to be a waste of money, and I fully acknowledge that it doesn't need to be "milspec" for what I'm using it for, its just "peace of mind" and I'm going to brag about it to my buddies, I'm sure. Its going to cost a lot, and do nothing significantly better than my other rifles, other than look prettier, I guarantee it. It won't have a single Windham part in it.
Doesn't mean my RR rifle isn't perfectly fine for what it does, and it doesn't mean I'm not perfectly happy with a Windham BCG in another rifle I have. (also not milspec, also perfectly happy with it)

If the OP is REALLY interested in the differences, there are many sources of information regarding what the "milspec" features actually are. Hint: you aren't ever going to have a "military-specification" rifle, unless you are in the "military".

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=493

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2259&cid=4

"Here’s the deal, and it’s very simple:
Only rifles made for the U.S. military are MilSpec. For more than 50 years and through numerous iterations, experimental models and improved variations, the U.S. military has developed a detailed list of specifications for its service rifle. These “military specifications” are iron-clad.
MilSpec criteria include every aspect of the rifle, from the materials it’s made from to the treatment of those materials, the dimensions of components made from those materials, testing of these parts, wear and durability, accuracy, service life—every excruciating detail is specified.
Finally, and most importantly, a MilSpec rifle is approved by a U.S. government inspector. The inspection process assures that all rifles bought on a government contract meet the MilSpec and a related criteria called “military standard” or MilStd.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present you with the first piece of irrefutable evidence in the case of the falsely advertised AR. A manufacturer cannot claim that its AR is “MilSpec.” By definition, a MilSpec rifle must be tested and inspected by the government.
If that’s not proof enough, consider this: There’s no such thing as a civilian-legal MilSpec rifle. A MilSpec rifle is a rifle made to fulfill a government contract and, as of now, there are only three such “animals” walking around: the M16A4, which has a three-round burst-fire selector; the M4, which also is equipped with a three-round burst-fire selector; and the M4A1, which is a fully automatic rifle. These are all classified as machine guns and no civilian transfers can take place for any machine gun manufactured after 1986. You cannot legally own a MilSpec AR."
 
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Should I copy and paste what has already been said about twist rates and different rounds/cartridges/bullets?

Should I copy and paste the discussion about aftermarket stock availability?

They are differences between the rifles that might negatively affect the enjoyment, effectiveness, or utility of the rifle, depending on what the owner/operator wants.

Which is why I suggested, at the very beginning, that the OP do some reasearch to better understand what the differences are and how they might (or might not) affect him, then make an informed decision.
dose the OP plain on switching out parts ??? if so, sorry I missed that , I thought he was just looking for a entry level AR-15 , and in that case a Windham would be a good starting place , dose anyone know of any BAD Windham's ? and what was wrong with them , as I too might be getting one , to sit next to my Olympic Arms AR-15
 
monotonous_iterancy said he heard Windham was good from a Walmart employee. (Instills confidence, doesn't it?) He didn't know much about the brand so asked us what we thought of them and what's the difference between a $750 and $1000 AR. He wants something that isn't cheap, he wants something he can keep for the rest of his life.

Going on that I'd pass on Windham and most other "comspec" ARs. Many people laugh at the term milspec but used properly it does set a baseline, it does tell you exactly what you're getting.

What worries me about commercial spec ARs is what are you getting? Well, odds are it's something less than milspec because the manufacturer can cut a few corners and increase his profit.

Windham is ok and I like their story but we know the old saying, "buy the gun, not the story" (usually when buying a used gun).

I select the parts going in my ARs, I just won't buy straight off the rack. I like to compare parts and get the best value. There are better choices than Windham at the $750 and $1000 price points. As I said earlier, the commecial diameter receiver extension is a dealbreaker. It screams to you that other corners have been cut. I'd skip Windham and look for better. That's not a knock against them - if you have one that's doing the job great but there are some really great choices at the same price point.
 
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You tell the OP to do some research and make his own decisions, then imply to him which decisions he should not make because they "aren't milspec" Not that they aren't strong enough, or that they won't do what the OP needs them to do, no...."they aren't milspec".

I didn't think he was saying that. I think Warp was simply pointing me in the right direction because I want the highest quality rifle I can get at an affordable price.

It might be a little silly, but I want to be able to look at that gun when I'm older and say
"This is my AR."

Also, the reason I really want durability and reliability is that I'd like this gun to take on a variety of roles if needed. Right now I mostly plink around, and any cheap AR could do that. But maybe as I get older I'll get into hunting, or competition shooting, or decide to make it my home-defense weapon. So I'd like something that could fill any role I decide to fill it with down the line, and I'd like it to do those roles well.
 
I didn't think he was saying that. I think Warp was simply pointing me in the right direction because I want the highest quality rifle I can get at an affordable price.

It might be a little silly, but I want to be able to look at that gun when I'm older and say
"This is my AR."

Also, the reason I really want durability and reliability is that I'd like this gun to take on a variety of roles if needed. Right now I mostly plink around, and any cheap AR could do that. But maybe as I get older I'll get into hunting, or competition shooting, or decide to make it my home-defense weapon. So I'd like something that could fill any role I decide to fill it with down the line, and I'd like it to do those roles well.
oh oh ..... sounds like you need more than one !!!! my first AR is in 25WSSM because I wanted an AR I could hunt with ( deer size and up ) and now I'm looking at a plinker , maybe a Windham or a DPMS, maybe a S&W to go with my S&W 1911, anyway lots to pick from , , and when you get old(er) you can say "those are my AR'S !!" not thats my AR ,
 
Here's another question. I know that ARs come in many calibers, but an AR-15 is a different gun than AR-10. One is .22 caliber, and another is .30. So what could you convert an AR-15 to?
 
A quick google brought up this:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=337969

"AR-15, without bolt modification
.17 Remington
.17/223
.20 Tactical
.20 Practical
.20 Vartag
.204 Ruger
.221 Fireball
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.223 Remington (5.56x45mm)
.223 Remington Ackley Improved
6x45mm
6mm TCU
6x47mm
6mm Whisper
.25x45mm
6.5mm Whisper
7mm Whisper
7mm TCU
.300 Whisper (.300/221, .300 Fireball)
.338 Whisper

AR-15, with bolt modification
223 WSSM
5.45x39mm (.21 Genghis)
243 WSSM
6mm PPC
6mm WOA
6mm BR Remington
6mm Hagar
6.5mm PPC
6.5 WSSM
6.5 WOA
6.5mm Grendel
25 WSSM
6.8x43mm SPC
.30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (6.8x43mm case trimmed to 41mm and necked up to .308; the 6.8mm version of the .300 Whisper)
7.62x25
7.62x39mm
.30 RAR
300 OSSM
.357 Auto
.35 Gremlin (necked up 6.5 Grendel to 358)
.358 WSSM (various names, but all are some form of a WSSM necked up to 35 caliber, some are shortened to make them big game legal in Indiana)
.458 SOCOM
.50 Action Express
.50 Beowulf

AR-15 using a simple blowback operation
.17 HMR
.22 LR
.22 WMR
9x19mm
9x21
9x23
30 Carbine
357 Sig
40S&W
400 Cor-Bon
41 Action Express
10mm Auto
45 GAP
45ACP
45 Super
45 Win Mag

This list is in no way complete."
 
I think I've read that list, but how can a .223 AR be converted to something like .17, or .338 Whisper without essentially buying a whole new gun? Those rounds have different dimensions.
 
Barrel, bolt and magazines will have to be changed for many of those calibers. Usually you get a second upper in the caliber you want. Or a second rifle.
 
dose the OP plain on switching out parts ??? if so, sorry I missed that , I thought he was just looking for a entry level AR-15

He's looking for an AR to keep for years/decades.

In my experience a lot of people who get an AR and have it for years and years end up putting a different stock, or three, on it during that time.

The ease of doing this, and the selection you'll have, is something worth pointing out to people, so that they can take it into account when they make their decision.

There is no need for you to be so combative about this.

What worries me about commercial spec ARs is what are you getting? Well, odds are it's something less than milspec because the manufacturer can cut a few corners and increase his profit.

Yes.

In the majority of cases when it isn't to the spec, reasonable deduction leads you to the conclusion that the reason it isn't, is because it's less expensive to do what they did than to meet the spec. Not because it's better.

But to many people the price tag is really all that matters.

I didn't think he was saying that. I think Warp was simply pointing me in the right direction because I want the highest quality rifle I can get at an affordable price.

It might be a little silly, but I want to be able to look at that gun when I'm older and say
"This is my AR."

Also, the reason I really want durability and reliability is that I'd like this gun to take on a variety of roles if needed. Right now I mostly plink around, and any cheap AR could do that. But maybe as I get older I'll get into hunting, or competition shooting, or decide to make it my home-defense weapon. So I'd like something that could fill any role I decide to fill it with down the line, and I'd like it to do those roles well.

:cool:
 
sorry I didn't meen to be "combative" I just felt we were getting a bit off task , I did just think the OP was looking for a starter AR and not something to build on,
as to my point of milspec not allways being the best , well... my "AR" is a K-8 Target Mag, 25WSSM , last week I was kicking out 75gr V-max's at 3725fps,(over a Pact Pro XP) not sure a milspic could take that abuse, however I do agree with you some of the low end AR's do cut corners ,but if a guy is going to buy it and just shoot it and thats it .. then nothing wrong with that , and thats what I thought the OP was looking for ,

not here to pick a fight. just giving another point of view, and trying to stay on task,
 
Ah ... Nothing like a good pissing match :)

It might be a little silly, but I want to be able to look at that gun when I'm older and say
"This is my AR."
If that's what you really want, a good gun that you don't have to worry about ... one that you know will hold its value and you can be proud of, don't cheap out, do some price shopping and buy a new Colt in whatever configuration you want.
 
When it comes to some guns it's just best to wait a bit, save and go buy a good Colt.
It was this way when I wanted a 1911A1 and the same when I wanted an AR. Save some more scratch and go buy a nice 6920 and you wont regret it.
 
@savanahsdad.....I can't tell if you were being serious or sarcastic regarding commercial spec rifles being lighter than mil-spec rifles. In your words, you said that the commercial spec rifles may take less damage when dropped because it will hit the ground softer due to being lighter. I really would love to know what makes a mil-spec AR heavier than a commercial spec AR.


By the way, those of you who don't know, when a rifle is mil-spec, it doesn't just mean it's using mil-spec parts. It also means that it was assembled to military specification such as staking the castle nut, using taper pins instead of straight pins on the FSB and pinning the gas tube to the barrel rather than using a clamp or set screw. All of these differences I just brought up can and will effect the reliability of your rifle.

When it comes to the vital parts such as BCG's used in the cheaper rifles, I'd much rather depend on a bolt made with C-158 or 9310 rather than 8620. The better companies also use the full auto M16 carriers. When it comes to the feed ramps, the M4 ramps are the most reliable yet some companies still use rifle feed ramps or no feed ramps at all. The M4 feed ramps can also look like crap on some of the cheaper rifles.

I could go on and on but I have to go out and start the grill. Spend a little extra money and get a rifle from one of the tried, true and battle tested companies such as BCM, Colt or DD.

I'll leave this post with the common saying......Buy once, Cry once.
 
I have a Colt 6920 my wife has a Windham SRC. Both are excellent and I would have no problem using either one for any purpose. The windham is an excellent rifle that has proven extremely accurate and problem free through 800rds +- . The price was right 750$ and the quality is there. JMho.
 
@Obscenejesster, drop something heavy on your foot , and then drop something light on your foot , see what hurts more lol, fact is heavy things hit harder , I was not trying to say it is ok to drop your light non-milspec gun, nore was I saying if you drop your milspec gun that it would brake because it weighs a bit more, , when I asked "are you looking for a real light gun?" I was thinking of some of the REAL light non-milspec AR's with floating hand gaurds, light non-mil adjustable stocks , maybe a polly gun (not for me but maybe for him) or a flat-top loaded up with light Magpul (non-milspec) parts on it , ect ect,, and trying to point out that just because it maybe lighter dosen't meen it wont hold up for years of use,

I understand there are some milspec spec's are the way to go , but not all and yes how there put together is a big deal, and nothing wrong with going with a full-out milspec, I was just pointing out to the OP that I wouldn't get hung up on milspec , or any one brandname , lots to pick from , and IF he is looking/wanting a light weight gun, then a full-out milspec is not the way to go, as of yet I/we dont know if weight is going to be a factor in what the OP wants , my first AR started life at 9.5lbs, after bipod, scope ,riser, rings, and larger loaded mags , it's a tank !! but that's what I wanted , :)
 
I have a Colt 6920 my wife has a Windham SRC. Both are excellent and I would have no problem using either one for any purpose. The windham is an excellent rifle that has proven extremely accurate and problem free through 800rds +- . The price was right 750$ and the quality is there. JMho.
ahha,,, one milspec and one "maybe" not ,, are the buffer tubes the same on your Clot and your Wife's Windham ?
 
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