AR's - Windham?

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jim243 said:
The commercial tube is larger (not by much) and should provide for more material to make it stronger, just not sure what material it is made from. Have not had a commercial tube brake on me. But I do not use it for a base ball bat either.

Jim
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The mil-spec tube is stronger. It will be 7075 while the commercial tubes (every one I know of) are 6061.
 
the biggest complaint with BCGs is not OVER staking, it's lack of staking...
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My bad - I should have stated the biggest complaint with BCGs is the issue of staking / not staking / improper staking, etc.

When I said over, I did not mean as in too much staking - over referred to the issue, not the actual amount of staking.
 
Oh and by the way.... Yes your AR made by Rock River most likely has good M4 feed ramps.
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It may have "good" feed ramps, but I'm pretty sure they're not true M4 feed ramps.
Iff'n memory serves, "proper" M4 feed ramps have more of a square cut, and are deeper / longer than some I've seen. I'm pretty sure my RRA (at least one of 'em) does not have a true M4 cut.

But...if it works...
 
Also, I assume BCG means bolt carrier group?
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It does.

I guess chrome plated is good to have.
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Depends on what you want - I know some bench rest shooters that do not want chrome plating, but they're after ultimate accuracy.
A more pragmatic person like myself would take the chrome, but S&W (and others) sound like they're doing great things with barrel treatments other than chrome.
'Course, the newer treatments are not Milspec!

I almost forgot to ask, what do you mean by "staking" and what is so great about MOACKS?
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Google Gas Key Staking and you'll get plenty of pictures - some good, some bad, etc.
If you have a MOACKS, you can stake the heck outta your gas keys, it that floats your boat. I keep saying I'm going to buy one, but anything other than the basic version does get a bit pricey (and you can no doubt get the job done with just a hammer and punch).
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php

Here's a great link full of info / pics:
So you want to buy an AR-15, huh?
 
taliv said:
this thread is full of misinformation.




this is wildly misleading. yes the weapon was made by the lowest bidder THAT MET THE MINIMUM STANDARD.

yes, mil-spec rifles break down. that should be obvious to anyone with a pulse. all machines break, especially when subjected to the abuse dispensed by soldiers and Marines.

HOWEVER, they are still much better that MOST of the complete crap that used to be sold by the mfg catering to civilians. fortunately, some of these are doing better than they used to.

the biggest complaint with BCGs is not OVER staking, it's lack of staking, and improperly tested bolts, and weak extractor springs.

People don't get PO'd when someone asks questions, but they do respond negatively to a combination of sarcasm and errors. feel free to be more specific about whatever it is you think makes the chart incorrect.
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Thank you for that, taliv! The good information in this thread has been overwhelmed with bad. I hope the OP is able to make some sense of it all.
 
feel free to be more specific about whatever it is you think makes the chart incorrect.
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Ain't no way I'm going down that road (again)!
Years ago, I thought I was paying someone (that shall go nameless) a compliment on the work put into the chart, but did point out that it was not the holy grail some think it to be.
I got my first (and so far) only Internet stalker for that...

Since I quit paying any attention to the chart long ago, I will point out that way back when I first saw one, it pointed out brand X did not come with a chrome lined barrel. Brand X would sell you a chrome lined barrel if that's what you wanted - all you had to do was check the box.

I guess sometimes choice is a bad thing?
 
basicblur said:
Ain't no way I'm going down that road (again)!
Years ago, I thought I was paying someone (that shall go nameless) a compliment on the work put into the chart, but did point out that it was not the holy grail some think it to be.
I got my first (and so far) only Internet stalker for that...

Since I quit paying any attention to the chart long ago, I will point out that way back when I first saw one, it pointed out brand X did not come with a chrome lined barrel. Brand X would sell you a chrome lined barrel if that's what you wanted - all you had to do was check the box.

I guess sometimes choice is a bad thing?
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You realize that you just decided to go down that road, right?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Since you have gone down the road, please be more specific.
 
ok, so maybe it's just full of miscommunication :)

I didn't think I had to point out that Murphy's Laws of Combat are a joke. Apologies for the 'misinformation'
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i have the poster and know it's a joke. there's some funny stuff in there. the 'misinfo' i was referring to was about the receiver extension, feed ramps, chart etc. not the joke. it is nevertheless misleading because as blur stated, mil-spec is the lowest standard, not the highest. we should go up from there, not down.


blur, no that's on me. I misread "over". kind of funny. that's what i get for posting after my bedtime

right, it's definitely not a holy grail. it's just an attempt to inform consumers before they spend money that they ARE differences (not just roll mark artwork and brands). but it still has a lot of educational value.
 
It's true the brand comparison part of the M4 Chart hasn't been updated in years but it's still useful, especially the section called Explanation of Desirable Features in Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines. It's a great read if anyone hasn't seen it. Here's a link:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html


Also something else to think about, Stag Arms actually lists features and puts a price tag on a milspec upgrade to their comspec AR models. Guess how much this Plus Package will set you back? $100! No wonder so many popular brands sell a comspec AR to reach the bean counters' price point.

"In addition to our standard features the Stag Plus Package includes:

- 4150 barrel steel chrome lined
- 1/7 Twist rifling
- M4 feed ramps
- Individually MP & HP tested and marked Bolt & Barrel
- M-16 Bolt Carrier
- Heavy (H) buffer assembly
- Two (2) 30rd USGI Magazines*"
 
I would hold out for a Colt or BCM or one of the other reputable manufacturers. You might be buying it for a plinker and not as a fighting rifle but if you change your mind or decide to sell it you will be glad you spent the extra money now. A Colt will hold its value much better than a lower tier rifle.
 
You realize that you just decided to go down that road, right?
Since you have gone down the road, please be more specific.
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You mean about the chart, or my Internet stalker?

In either case, no.

To the OP - iff'n it was me, I might consider either Colt (since there seem to be some good prices one 'em in areas) or maybe the S&W? Colt if you like Milspec and probably for holding it's value, Smith for money savings?

I don't have a Smith (well I did just buy one of their 15-22s), but have eyeballed a few - feedback sounds good on 'em.
I know when they got in the game, a lot of their stuff was from another company (Bushmaster?) - from what I understand, most / everything is now done in-house.
I used to work in manufacturing - I do have a soft spot for companies that like to keep everything in-house instead of trying to outsource everything.

'Course, I still have no problems with RRA - the rifle everybody loves to hate...
 
blur, no that's on me. I misread "over". kind of funny. that's what i get for posting after my bedtime
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Apology accepted. :D
Nah, I'm just funnin' wid' ya!

Actually, I realized when I wrote it that it could be misinterpreted, but that's what I get for posting after my bedtime - I gots lazy.
 
To the OP?

Mebbe it's just me, but it appears the cheapest Milspec rifle I can purchase (and part of the reason I bought my last one) is the Colt.

I'm sure BCM and Daniel Defense make good stuff (my BCG spare parts pack is from BCM), but when I whip by their sites it seems that instead of the $100 / $200 more expensive some folks claim they are, darn if they don't seem to be around 33 to 50% higher than a good price on the Colt!?

I always figured the reason the Colt was cheaper was their economy of scale?
 
If I were in the market for an AR-15 I wouldn't hesitate to pick one of these up. At the gun-show this weekend they were selling for $699.
 
basicblur said:
... Mebbe it's just me, but it appears the cheapest Milspec rifle I can purchase (and part of the reason I bought my last one) is the Colt.

I'm sure BCM and Daniel Defense make good stuff (my BCG spare parts pack is from BCM), but when I whip by their sites it seems that instead of the $100 / $200 more expensive some folks claim they are, darn if they don't seem to be around 33 to 50% higher than a good price on the Colt!?

I always figured the reason the Colt was cheaper was their economy of scale?
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Some of the extra cost of BCM and Daniel Defense can be explained by the configuration, especially if rails, CHF and sights are involved. I haven't priced lately but last year you could put together a basic non-hammer forged BCM for about the same as the non-hammer forged Colt LE6920 for $1100 at Walmart. It's harder to find a DD without rails which adds a few hundred. And their barrels are hammer forged (CHF). Three years ago I bought a DD stripped upper receiver group (meaning complete except for rails/handguards, rear sight and BCG/charging handle) with hammer forged barrel. I added a DD BCG and charging handle and finished the build for a little over $1000 so if a stripped URG can be found now you may come close to the Colt.
 
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basicblur said:
To the OP?

Mebbe it's just me, but it appears the cheapest Milspec rifle I can purchase (and part of the reason I bought my last one) is the Colt.

I'm sure BCM and Daniel Defense make good stuff (my BCG spare parts pack is from BCM), but when I whip by their sites it seems that instead of the $100 / $200 more expensive some folks claim they are, darn if they don't seem to be around 33 to 50% higher than a good price on the Colt!?

I always figured the reason the Colt was cheaper was their economy of scale?
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BCM somewhat regularly sells "complete" uppers (16" mid length especially) for $459, with the option to add a BCG and Charging handle for $270. If you hunt around you can find a complete BCM lower for $380 or so.

That would come to $1,110 plus shipping/transfer fees and you would need a handguard as well as a rear sight/optic.

Of course, you can assemble a very good lower for less than buying a complete BCM upper and be good to go.
 
monotonous_iterancy said:
I don't know what "staking" is..

I also hear that S&W's don't have dust covers.
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Read the explanation associated with the chart that I think was linked above.

It's a method of keeping the screws that hold the gas key in place, in place.

The S&W Sport does not have a forward assist or dust cover. The M&P 15 does, last I checked.

As alluded to above, stuff like this is VERY easy to find without searching.

If we have to spoon feed you things like this, you will NEVER know what you should in order to make an informed decision. We can't start from the ground up and go over every possible detail in this thread.
 
Wow! This is perhaps the worst, most wandering and ego-boosting/self-serving collection of posts that I've ever come across here at THR; what a shame. I feel bad for the OP...the guy asked for some simple opinions, not a p*ssing contest amongst members. OP: it sure sounds like you're on the right track as you have, thanks to Warp and a few others, been directed down the path of education prior to making your purchase and I couldn't agree more or emphasize the importance of this enough. The chart is an excellent place to start, and Google is your friend! I spent months simply reading random articles all across the internets before making my first AR purchase and, because of this, have been 100% satisfied with my purchase (a Spike's Tactical 16" M4 LE carbine which I would humbly suggest you check out). It sounds like the Windham would likely suit your needs in the short term but could potentially fall short down the road. Because of this I would suggest you look into some of the higher end brands such as Daniel Defense, BCM and, dare I add, Spike's Tactical?! Best of luck, I hope you have been able to glean SOME useful information from all of these posts and haven't gotten too confused amongst all the bloviating.

I have included a link at the bottom of this post to a guide that I found to be quite useful as a starting point when researching/purchasing my rifle. It has been quite some time since I read it but I do remember the information within the guide to be pretty accurate. Hope this helps.

http://forums.officer.com/t81462/
 
Spikes makes fine rifles. They don't get the love so much with the M4C crowd and the like, but most admit they make a fine rifle, well, out of good components.

Personally I wouldn't mind having a nice Spikes M4 carbine. Except I can't stand the rollmark. As soon as somebody told me it's a pair of penis', that's all I ever see.
 
Spikes is another company I wouldn't mind buying a rifle from. They use good parts and their QC is good as well. Since they're a small shop it takes a little longer for them to get complete rifles in stock. I have one of their Zombie lowers just because I like Zombies but I don't like their spider logo. Like someone else said, it looks to much like dueling dongs. Spikes also makes a great buffer and buffer tube kit. I love their buffers filled with tungsten powder.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
 
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