As real as it gets

[dom1104]

I have been preaching for a long time, that not all criminals are dumb. And as the economy gets worse, their will be smarter and smarter unemployed people that are desperate.

This is how it goes, in countries with declining economies.

In S. America, groups of criminals are the norm. <we call them, 'gangs'>

Think about it, if your new job was crime, would you want to do it alone? unarmored?

I am afriad we mostly assume we will be far better armed, trained, and smarter than our assailants, when this can simply not be true.

They also have the initiative.

 

[AirborneNCO]

What do you think about the 5.7x28mm round as employed from the FN Five Seven pistol or perhaps a P90 series weapon? If I understand correctly, that round was designed specifically to penetrate body armor while penetrating other materials typically found in the urban environment on a relatively lesser scale than your typical assault rifle ammo.

 

[AirborneNCO]

You're right dom, there are a lot of dudley-do-wrongs out there that will do the wrong thing when the stakes are high. Hopefully, that's what separates you from them. I know it does for me.

However, when it comes to the intelligence of criminals, I'd wager to say that for every smart criminal, there's at least 10 of them that are pretty danged retarded. However, I don't just automatically assume that I'm superior to any enemy that invades my home. I doubt many do. I never underestimate the enemy, thus the serious weapons and mindset that I maintain. And initiative is a very general term. I'm pretty sure you mean they begin by breaking in, and that's the initiative you're talking about. After that, there are a subset of things where other initiatives take place. Like who sees who first.

 

[dom1104]

However, when it comes to the intelligence of criminals, I'd wager to say that for every smart criminal, there's at least 10 of them that are pretty danged retarded. However, I don't just automatically assume that I'm superior to any enemy that invades my home. I doubt many do. I never underestimate the enemy, thus the serious weapons and mindset that I maintain. And initiative is a very general term. I'm pretty sure you mean they begin by breaking in, and that's the initiative you're talking about. After that, there are a subset of things where other initiatives take place. Like who sees who first.

I agree, I just think we need to prepare for the 1 in 10.

And yes I mean, they are the attacker, have time to prepare, we are the defender, and have no idea when the attack will come.

I think there are a LOT of people on this forum, that think that bad guys are such buffoons that they will lose bowels at the sound of a 870 loading a shell, that they are all just vagrants and that a double barrel shotgun is plenty of firepower to deal with any and all threats. I get the strong impression that the general perception is that a 5 shot snubbie will keep you safe come hell or high water.

If events in the US have taught us anything over the last few years, its that a lot can change in a short amount of time.

We need to be ready for the worst, and hope for the best. So yeah I agree with you.

I just would like to point to other countries, that have major crime problems "half drunk bozos" are not the only type of criminal.

I have also heard a LOT of people make comments on this very forum that "When SHTF I will get the guns or supplies I need" and that scares the poo out of me. Members of this very FORUM have already turned mentally to looters and heavily armed robbers.

I am not talking about some apocolyptic scenario, but when your personal SHTF.

You loose your job, your house, your unemployment runs out, you are facing homelessness.... what do you do? This is a situation more and more educated and smart people are facing.

We need to be ready for the worst, not Joe Bungle breaking in with a brick thru a window.

just my 2 cents.

 

[benEzra]

What do you think about the 5.7x28mm round as employed from the FN Five Seven pistol or perhaps a P90 series weapon? If I understand correctly, that round was designed specifically to penetrate body armor while penetrating other materials typically found in the urban environment on a relatively lesser scale than your typical assault rifle ammo.

With civilian-available ammunition, 5.7x28mm will not penetrate vests rated to stop .357 magnum. The often-touted AP abilities of the P90 are specific to military/LEO restricted AP ammunition.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I've prepared for a long time, the case there is ever a BG wearing body armor. It's why I finally settled on carrying a Glock 20 with Doubletap and a snub nose .357. The snub nose might not defeat body armor but that's what the Glock 20 is for. I'm looking to get a Glock 27 and converting it to Sig .357 but don't know.

I keep an AR in 5.45x39 loaded with steel core surplus next to my bed when I sleep, and under a blanket when I'm in my room. Always remember to shoot for the head, just in case those pesky zombies ever show up lol.

 

[C-grunt]

As far as armor goes remember most armor only covers the front and the back. The sides and shoulders are still exposed. A shot COM shot from the side is still very deadly.

Not to mention most helmets are frag helmets and wont stop a .22.

 

[Mp7]

....

scary sh**.

Coming back to clean the scene is far out.
Armed like for a Hollywood-Shootout ist too.

..... is there a personal background to this?


If it was likely for the BG to come back ...
Rifles should be handy.

 

[MarineOne]

I think the thing we're all missing here is this:

Body armor doesn't protect everything.


This is where a shotgun would be a great choice. The head, shoulders, arms, legs, and pelvic area are not covered by body armor. You simply change your shot placement, or aim low and cause some very serious trauma to the intruders lower body and legs, and it sounds like this is what happened to the BG found in the garage all shot up.

Low tech solution to a high tech problem.


Kris

 

[ccsniper]

This is where a shotgun would be a great choice. The head, shoulders, arms, legs, and pelvic area are not covered by body armor. You simply change your shot placement, or aim low and cause some very serious trauma to the intruders lower body and legs, and it sounds like this is what happened to the BG found in the garage all shot up.

Low tech solution to a high tech problem.

still yet, BG wearing body armor is a scary thing

 

[Werewolf]

You loose your job, your house, your unemployment runs out, you are facing homelessness.... what do you do? This is a situation more and more educated and smart people are facing.

No worries:

Our messianic president will take care of all our needs.

 

[gym]

As gun laws change so do the criminals preparation for these types of crimes. They know that most folks in certain areas of the country have at least a handgun or shotgun now for home protection. They also know about cctv, and alarms. As with anything else it is an ever evolving scenario. We prepare for them and they try to prepare for us. It would be downright dumb for a well organized ring of burglars or stickup men to not consider Armor as part of their prep now. Shot placement is about the only thing that makes any sense, in an urban setting, as we can't possibly all get full auto weapons, and it becomes difficult to carry a "BAR" around the house. I guess practice still makes perfect. I don't know if those FN pistols are , useful, or even legal to have in all states, but they fire armor piercing rounds from what I have read. A 5.7x28mm round.@ around 1700-2000fps, it's an interesting round, but the cost of the pistol is arouund a thousand dollars from some quick research I just did. They may start to become popular if this type of crime is on the rise. It's a cross between a 9mm and a 223 round, and is armor piercing at 75 yards. I don't know if these guns or the ammo are legal so please check your local laws. But there is a lot of video on utube showing the guns and ammo. The gun holds 20 rounds and weighs around 20 ozs, it is a polymer weapon,here is a link to more info,http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/FN_Five-seveN.

 

[ENCPirate]

With civilian-available ammunition, 5.7x28mm will not penetrate vests rated to stop .357 magnum. The often-touted AP abilities of the P90 are specific to military/LEO restricted AP ammunition.

I could be wrong on this. But cant you still find some of the 5.7 AP rounds from before the ban, be it at a pretty extreme price though.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Gym, Um, no, the rounds are only available to LEO/military and some of those rounds made it into the market, but to my understanding the 5.7 was invented after the ban so all AP for it is a no no. The ball round and I think they had a round that is similar to the 5.56 109? ball in that it had a steel tip, but that was withdrawn from the market thanks to the Brady bunch and a campaign of lies. FN redesigned the civilian round with a heavier lead bullet to my understanding to make the antis happy.

forgot, I believe that they used the PS90 and not the 5.7 pistol to get the vest penetration...

 

[CWL]

Body armor: if you ever face a situation like these people, and don't have a good rifle, then shot placement counts.

Actually, shot placement always counts.

 

[Werewolf]

One poster mentioned that Level III vests were rated to stop 12ga. Does that include slugs? And even if the slug didn't penetrate the vest wouldn't the shock of getting punched in the chest with a half oz plus of lead moving at 1200 FPS at least be enough of a shock to incapacitate the target for a few seconds?

 

[RoadkingLarry]

they found one man shot in the garage

I guess his body armor didn't cover that part of his anatomy. I must have missed that lesson in biology class 'cause I ain't sure where to shoot to hit someone there.

 

[gym]

It's like the caboose, lol

 

[saturno_v]

I did a bit of research and I found that you can buy a Type IIIA bulletproof vest (protecting the pelvis and shoulder as well) for as little as $499

Definitely an investment that a thoughtful criminal may choose to make...


Type IIIA can theoretically protect up to a 44 Magnum 240 gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point fired at 1340 fps...which is not a small feat..

Well what I wonder is if that vest can really stop a 44 Magnum from going in, what is the realistic blunt trauma that the vest wearer will be subjected too??

If you shoot at someone with a Type IIIA vest with a 9 mm or a 40 is like throwing candies at him???

Maybe is time for me to reconsider some of my hardware which I keep on the ready for HD duty....retire the 9 mm and the 40, stuff the shotgun with Brenneke slugs unstead of 00 Buck, put some Buffalo Bore on the Mod 29 cylinder and take the 30-30 out of the safe!!!

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, it's more like trowing sledgehammers at him, take a little more time and see after photos of people who got shot with BA on, I had a good friend take an IED fragment to the bottom of his back SAPPI in Iraq, he was in the hospital for 3 weeks for a punctured lung and getting his ribcage wired back together.

 

[fireflyfather]

One poster mentioned that Level III vests were rated to stop 12ga. Does that include slugs? And even if the slug didn't penetrate the vest wouldn't the shock of getting punched in the chest with a half oz plus of lead moving at 1200 FPS at least be enough of a shock to incapacitate the target for a few seconds?

I'm not current on III/IIIA specs regarding shotgun slugs, but a cursory search shows that level III plates will stop a 12 gauge slug (that's a rifle plate), but I'm guessing that a level IIIA vest without plates won't. In any case, if it doesn't penetrate, it's not going to incapacitate your target any more than being hit in the torso with a baseball bat would. Hell, some people have been shot with buckshot without any armor at all, and kept coming. Adrenaline, alcohol, and other drugs can do funny things. Besides, a 30-06 has more muzzle energy than a 12 gauge slug, and retains its energy longer. If a plate can stop a 30-06 without the wearer dropping, it's going to stop a standard lead slug with a similar effect. Short version: Don't count on slugs stopping someone wearing a rifle plate unless you shoot them in an unarmored spot.

 

[saturno_v]

What is the realistic cost of a Type III and Type IV vest?? Are they too impractical and heavy to wear??
If you hit someone with a Type IV vest with a 30-06, yes it will nto penetrate but what about the blunt trauma??

 

[Jeff White]

Ahh the hysteria and hand wringing that goes on every time a story like this is posted. The truth is that there are very few random home invasions. Most home invasions fall into 5 categories:

1. People involved in the drug trade ripping each other off.

2. People who hang out with those who live a criminal lifestyle and are targeted by mistake, this includes family members.

3. Romantic entanglements that get violent.

4. People who let it be known that they keep large amounts of cash or other easily moved valuables in their home.

5. People who work as bank or jewelry store managers, armored car company managers or other occupations that place them at risk of kidnapping and extortion.

The old and wise advice about not living a criminal lifestyle or hanging around those who do and not being involved romantically with emotionally disturbed persons, not keeping large amounts of cash or other valuables in your home and if you are forced to make sure no one else knows will do more to keep you from being a victim of this kind of attack then al of the guns and illegal armor piercing ammunition you can acquire.

Here are some additional details about this attack:
http://www.salisburypost.com/Area/110309--3rd-arrest-in-Corriher-Grange-deal

Authorities make third arrest in Corriher Grange Road shootout
Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:10 AM
By Jessie Burchette

[email protected]

A third person has been charged in a home invasion and shootout last week on Corriher Grange Road.

Nigel Jerome Powers, 20, of 158 Austin Run Court, Kannapolis, is charged with three counts of robbery with firearms.

He is being held in the Rowan County Detention Center under a $500,000 bond.

Powers and three others face charges in the Oct. 27 home invasion and robbery at Randy and Sherry Deadmon's 220 Corriher Grange Road home, or the subsequent encounter and shootout on Friday afternoon.

Lt. Terry Agner, of the Rowan County Sheriff's Office, confirmed today that the Deadmon's son, John-Ross Deadmon, is an acquaintance of one or more of the people involved in the home invasion and robbery.

Agner would not say if any of the people charged had been in the Deadmon house prior to the Oct. 27 robbery.

On that Tuesday night, a masked man knocked John Randall "Randy" Deadmon down when he went outside around 9 p.m. Another masked man armed with a gun and a woman went into the house and told Sherry Deadmon he would "blow her head off" if she didn't open a safe, according to reports.

The three took the contents, described as a .357 Smith & Wesson and a .22 long-nose pistol, a .38-caliber Colt pistol, .38-caliber Charter Arms pistol and $1,300.

Friday afternoon around 3 p.m., John Deadmon and John-Ross Deadmon exchanged gunfire inside and outside their home with two men, seriously wounding one of them.

The Deadmons said the man came to their house and threatened them for reporting the Tuesday night robbery to law enforcement.

Jonathan Esquire Williams, 18, of 1699 Mission Oaks St., Kannapolis, was found seriously wounded at the Deadmon home. He was airlifted to Carolinas Medical Center, where he remains.

The second person authorities say was involved in the shootout is Tiamni D'Ante Starks, who John-Ross Deadmon chased along Corriher Grange Road to nearby N.C. 152, exchanging gunfire as they went.

Agner said Monday that investigators believe Powers, Starks and Tiffany Suzanne Horne are the three involved in the Oct. 27 robbery.

Horne, 19, of 2105 Brantley Road, is charged with four counts of robbery with a firearm and three counts of conspiracy to commit robbery, all felonies.

She is being held in the Rowan County Detention Center under $500,000 bond.

Investigators also believe Horne picked up Starks Friday evening as he tried to elude Kannapolis police after the shooting.

Starks, 18, of Brantley Creek Drive, Kannapolis, is charged with two counts of attempted murder, four counts of robbery with firearms and three counts of conspiracy to commit robbery.

He is being held in the Rowan County Detention Center under $1 million bond.

Williams faces two counts each of attempted first-degree murder, robbery with a dangerous weapon and conspiracy to commit robbery.

He will not be formally charged until released from the hospital.

Agner said at this point investigators are not sure if the Deadmons will face in charges related to the shooting. "If your life is in danger, you've got to defend yourself," Agner said.

So all you guys who think this is a sign of the bad economy can back down from DEFCON 3, put the safety clips back on your grenades, raise the bails on your Claymore clackers and stop making the family get up before dawn for stand to. There is no evidence that the poor economy is prompting bands of armed thugs to randomly kick in doors.

 

[Shadow 7D]

The plate spreads the impact, my friend had he been hit higher would have walked away, been sore for awhile, but walked away, when he got hit so close to the edge, the plate rolled and the edge of it went into his ribs and did the damage. shotgun would be bad, 00 buck or worse slug. Look at some of the pic. I saw one where the indention was deep enough for a person to put their finger in it past the first knuckle. It's soft tissue so it will rebound, but that is still a lot of trauma from a pistol round, I would hate to see what a slug would do to the ribcage.

 

[Kind of Blued]

So all you guys who think this is a sign of the bad economy can back down from DEFCON 3, put the safety clips back on your grenades, raise the bails on your Claymore clackers and stop making the family get up before dawn for stand to. There is no evidence that the poor economy is prompting bands of armed thugs to randomly kick in doors.

Thanks for that. A lot of complaints on this site (about anti-gun folks) is something to the effect of them "believing what they want to believe". It's extremely important not to fall into the same trap. Good work.