At A 45 Deg How far will they go

[ROW]

At about a 45 degree angle is there a way to estimate how far a 175/180 grain bullet would travel from a 300 RUM or even a 5.56 55 grain. Surly this is a ball park number. I have only seen range on 22's never anything else. So why on nothing else?? now I know their should be a big difference from sea level to 5 or 10000 ft. But I live in Oklahoma 500 to 2500 ft.

 

[ontarget]

Ok where are the mathematicians?

 

[lysanderxiii]

At A 45 Deg How far will they go?

Not as far as at about 30 degrees....








The Army figures that 3,825 yards beyond the firing point of 5.56mm is beyond the danger zone.

5,800 yards for 7.62mm, 8,310 yards for .300 Winchester Magnum....

(See DA Pam 385-63: Range Safety)

 

[JimKirk]

A Hornady ELD 178 gr fired at 3300 fps @ a 32.5 degree angle ... will travel to 5596.7 yards ending velocity will be 480.2 fps coming down at a 63.9 degree angle .... total flight time 32.7 seconds .... this will change slightly depending air conditions and other factors ....

 

[desidog]

Depends which way the wind is blowing too...

 

[Bobson]

A Hornady ELD 178 gr fired at 3300 fps @ a 32.5 degree angle ... will travel to 5596.7 yards ending velocity will be 480.2 fps coming down at a 63.9 degree angle .... total flight time 32.7 seconds .... this will change slightly depending air conditions and other factors ....

Did you use an online calculator to get this, or did you enter the grain, muzzle velocity, and angle into formulas and do it yourself?

 

[MikeInOr]

The distance a bullet will travel depends on the angle it is fired, the height above ground the bullet is fired, the muzzle velocity of the bullet, the drag coefficient of the bullet, the wind speed and air density... for the most part. For a more accurate calculation the curvature of the earth and the rotation of the earth should also be included in the calculation among other things. Gravity varies a little from the equator to the poles so where you are will also have a small affect on distance.

Generally an ideal model bullet will travel a maximum distance if fired around 45 degrees. With a head wind an angle less than 45 degrees will yeild a maximum distance. With a tail wind an angle greater than 45 will generally yeild a maximum distance.

One of the greatest advances in war was the realization that the trajectory of a projectile could be calculated... instead of just making a random guess. With this advance in mathmatics artillery guns could reliably start hitting targets at a distance. My understanding is that during WWI every artillery unit had a book of trajectories to allow the units to make an educated guess at the proper settings to hit a target.

Any artilllery officers on here? ...If not I would guess your .223 would go about a mile and a quarter with a maximum altitude of about a half mile with a final energy of about 60ft/lbs (vs. about 1300 ft/lbs muzzle energy) and a final velosity of about 700 ft/s. A 22-250 will give considerably better range.

This site looks like it should give you a start on your trajectory calculation. gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

The science of ballistics is pretty close to "rocket science".

 

[Goosey]

Some calculations may not be accurate at those ranges since ballistic coefficient is an approximation. Here are some using Lapua's bullet-specific drag models.

Lapua 55 gr SP @ 3133 ft/s

Maximum Horizontal Range ............ 2215 yd
Angle of Elevation .................. 26.93 deg
Total Flight Time ................... 20.35 sec
Impact Velocity ..................... 242 ft/s

Lapua 69-gr Scenar-L @ 2723 ft/s

Maximum Horizontal Range ............ 3186 yd
Angle of Elevation .................. 30.12 deg
Total Flight Time ................... 25.22 sec
Impact Velocity ..................... 314 ft/s

Lapua 175 gr Scenar-L @ 3300 ft/s

Maximum Horizontal Range ............ 4712 yd
Angle of Elevation .................. 31.15 deg
Total Flight Time ................... 31.28 sec
Impact Velocity ..................... 381 ft/s

Lapua 220 gr Scenar-L @ 3000 ft/s

Maximum Horizontal Range ............ 5933 yd
Angle of Elevation .................. 33.69 deg
Total Flight Time ................... 35.79 sec
Impact Velocity ..................... 455 ft/s

(If I use Brian Litz's G7 BC for the 175-gr Scenar-L the calculator gives 5584 yards maximum range. The 220 gr with Litz BC says 6506 yards, and the 69-gr Scenar-L, 4140 yards. Similar results with Lapua BC. So you can see a single BC may not be very accurate at such extreme ranges.)

 

[lysanderxiii]

Generally an ideal model bullet will travel a maximum distance if fired around 45 degrees. With a head wind an angle less than 45 degrees will yeild a maximum distance. With a tail wind an angle greater than 45 will generally yeild a maximum distance.

No. It is less than 45 degrees. Usually around 30 degrees. Maximum range at 45 degrees is only true in a vacuum....

One of the greatest advances in war was the realization that the trajectory of a projectile could be calculated... instead of just making a random guess. With this advance in mathmatics artillery guns could reliably start hitting targets at a distance. My understanding is that during WWI every artillery unit had a book of trajectories to allow the units to make an educated guess at the proper settings to hit a target.

"Educated guess"?

Hell no, given accurate information, the first round can be within a 100 meter circle. centered on the target.

The reason artillery has to be adjusted is because 1) the forward observer rarely knows exactly where he is relative to the battery, and 2) the forward observer rarely knows exactly where the target is relative to him.

EDIT:

From the time of Gustavus Adolphus to WW1, artillery gunners had a 'Range Table' that gave the elevation required (for each type of projectile, if multiple types were available) to get to a specified range. Other than that, artillery was still direct fire, i.e., the gunner aimed the piece similar to a rifle.

Just prior to WW1 the techniques for indirect fire were experimented with where the gunners serving the artillery piece never actually saw the target. By the twenties, the British and US Field artillery had further developed this art of indirect fire so that none of the artillery were actually required to observe the fall of shot, in a pinch, anybody could do it.

That method is still what is used today, the only minor difference is a digital computer does the work instead of four or five guys.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A note that may be of interest:

In small arms, the momentum-to-drag ratio is quite small. Momentum varies with the cube of the projectile's dimensions (assuming equal shapes) and drag with the square (again assuming equal shapes.) This means small projectiles have a low momentum-to-drag ratio and large projectiles (like a 15mm howitzer) have a much higher ratio.

Drag, of course, slows the projectile down, while momentum tends to keep it moving at a constant velocity.

What this all means is that as you increase the angle of elevation, you also increase the in-air travel distance the projectile has to cover. That means drag has more time to work on the projectile.

For small arms, at elevations of about 30 degrees, the added drag overcomes any range advantage. So maximum range is achieved at around 30 degrees elevation.

Conversely, for some large, high velocity guns -- such as the Paris Gun of WWI -- maximum range is achieved at elevations GREATER than 45 degrees. This is because the projectile leaves the atmosphere and much of its trajectory is virtually free of drag.

Once the projectile leaves the muzzle, the angle of elevation begins to decay. If the angle of elevation has decayed to 45 degrees at the point it leaves the atmosphere, it will achieve maximum range.

 

[rodregier]

Prior to the advent of digital computing devices, rooms full of persons (primarily women) were used to calculate trajectory tables for new-release artillery pieces.

Those persons were called...computers.

http://ethw.org/Women_Computers_in_World_War_II

"...In 1942, just after the United States entered World War II, hundreds of women were employed around the country as computers. Their job consisted of using mechanical desk calculators to solve long lists of equations. The results of these calculations were compiled into tables and published for use on the battlefields by gunnery officers."

From Wikipedia:

ENIAC (/ˈini.æk/ or /ˈɛni.æk/; Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer)[1][2] was the first electronic general-purpose computer. It was Turing-complete, digital, and could solve "a large class of numerical problems" through reprogramming.[3][4]

Although ENIAC was designed and primarily used to calculate artillery firing tables for the United States Army's Ballistic Research Laboratory...


This is a fun read from 1967:

THE PRODUCTION OF FIRING TABLES. FOR. CANNON ARTILLERY

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/826735.pdf

 

[rodregier]

The Canadian Firearm Safety Course has material on maximum distance for several centrefire rifle cartridges in addition to the more commonly quoted .22LR data.
(Passing the written and practical exam is mandatory before an individual can be issued with a Canadian Firearm License).

Questions for same can appear on various versions of the written exam.

http://firearmslaw.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/CFSC-Manual.pdf

(Page 91)

 

[JimKirk]

The calculations in my post are from JBM Ballistics ....

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

 

[MikeInOr]

"Educated guess"?

Hell no, given accurate information, the first round can be within a 100 meter circle. centered on the target.

I was refering to prior to the 1600's before people thought of creating range tables. When hitting anything with a canon or piece of artillery was a black art. By WW1 ballistics was an actual science. I would expect those dough boys could do a pretty darn good job of putting a shell where they wanted by the end of WW1! Like the rapid evolution of technology in all wars range tables were greatly enhanced during the war due to the need of better accuracy during the long trench battles.

Cite:http://nigelef.tripod.com/fc_ballistics.htm#RANGE TABLES

I love the posts in this thread... one of my favorite areas of history!

 

[lysanderxiii]

A note that may be of interest:
...

Conversely, for some large, high velocity guns -- such as the Paris Gun of WWI -- maximum range is achieved at elevations GREATER than 45 degrees. This is because the projectile leaves the atmosphere and much of its trajectory is virtually free of drag.

Once the projectile leaves the muzzle, the angle of elevation begins to decay. If the angle of elevation has decayed to 45 degrees at the point it leaves the atmosphere, it will achieve maximum range.

The maximum altitudes reached by the projectiles of the 'Paris Gun' were around 140,000 feet. "Space" is considered to start at 100 kilometers, or 327,400 feet, so those projectiles did not quite make it to space. But,they were the highest flying man-made objects until, the German (again) A-4 missile.

Further, the atmosphere does not just suddenly stop at some given point, the air just keeps getting thinner and thinner, so saying the angle is "45 degrees at the point it leaves the atmosphere" is quite meaningless.

But, the point you were making is interesting, that sometimes you can get up into the rarified air of the stratosphere and achieve less drag.

 

[BCRider]

Half of our atmosphere is located within the first (roughly) 18000 feet. The other half is above that. So anything that reaches up past that for much of its trajectory is gaining quite a lot from lower air resistance due to the lower air density.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally sent by MikeInOr:

I was refering to prior to the 1600's before people thought of creating range tables. When hitting anything with a canon or piece of artillery was a black art. By WW1 ballistics was an actual science. I would expect those dough boys could do a pretty darn good job of putting a shell where they wanted by the end of WW1! Like the rapid evolution of technology in all wars range tables were greatly enhanced during the war due to the need of better accuracy during the long trench battles.

Actually, the first use of indirect fire (firing on targets not visible to the gunner) in combat was by Bryant's Battery, Army of Southwest Virginia At Fayetteville, West Virginia on the 19th and 20th of May, 1863. The Chief Gunner of the battery had constructed firing tables and used trigonometry to drop shells on Union guns on the other side of a grove of trees. The Union gunners were absolutely mystified -- they couldn't figure out where it was coming from.

The Chief Gunner was Sergeant Milton Wylie Humphrey, my first cousin, three times removed.

http://www.historynet.com/sergeant-milton-humphreys-concept-of-indirect-fire.htm

Humphrey gave the following account of the battle in his book, Military Operations in Fayette County, West Virginia. ‘The infantry went down into the woods toward the works,’ he wrote. ‘The road to Raleigh (now Beckley, West Va.) after running in a straight line nearly three-fourths of a mile from Fayetteville, turns square to the left, and ascends to a small cleared plateau with a hill on the right. On this ridge were posted Bryan’s third and fourth. The second piece (mine) was posted on the plateau at the end of a straight opening which had been cut in the woods and ran directly toward the Federal Fort.

‘My piece opened first and was immediately answered, and my third or fourth round cutting away the Yankee colors, they shelled us so vigorously and accurately with several guns that we were compelled to move to a place nearby where we could not be seen for the timber in front of us and the smoke behind us rising from the woods beyond the road which were on fire.’

This was a perfect opportunity for Humphreys to try his theory of indirect fire. He knew that the fort was approximately a mile away. From experience, he knew the range of his cannon. By using trigonometry, he calculated how far he would have to elevate the muzzle of his piece to shoot over the stand of black pines in front of him and drop a shell into the vicinity of the fort. The distance from the gun to the fort formed the base of a triangle; the trajectory of the shell was the hypotenuse. Once the shell expended its momentum, it would drop to earth.

Humphreys placed a man on a nearby hill to direct his fire, which he kept up the rest of the day and well into the following day. Under orders to fire slowly, due to a shortage of ammunition, he fired only 65 shots. The Union commander, Colonel Carr B. White, sent an armed patrol out on the 20th to locate the cannon, whereupon the Rebels prudently withdrew.

 

[lysanderxiii]

This was a perfect opportunity for Humphreys to try his theory of indirect fire. He knew that the fort was approximately a mile away. From experience, he knew the range of his cannon. By using trigonometry, he calculated how far he would have to elevate the muzzle of his piece to shoot over the stand of black pines in front of him and drop a shell into the vicinity of the fort. The distance from the gun to the fort formed the base of a triangle; the trajectory of the shell was the hypotenuse. Once the shell expended its momentum, it would drop to earth.

It is interesting to see know knowledge of a projectile's the trajectory has developed over the years....

There are a number of papers on long range shooting (mainly artillery) from the beginning to the middle of the 19th Century that also state "that once the momentum is expended, the object drops...".

Apparently, the common belief was that the bullet traveled in a straight line aligned with the bore until at some point gravity took over, and it fell to earth....

 

[jmorris]

The calculations posted above make this guys 4210 yard hit on a 36" steel plate more impressive.

http://bearingarms.com/holy-cow-texan-makes-record-shattering-4210-yard-rifle-shot/

 

[Bart B.]

From Sierra Bullets' software for their 180-gr. SBT from a 300 RUM; note max range is at 31 degree bore elevation angle, not 45 degrees.

Selected bullet .308 dia. 180 gr. SBT
Elevation Angle Variation 0.0°
Muzzle Velocity 3250 ft/s
Elevation : 500 Feet
Maximum Range 6037.04 Yards
Calculated Angle 31.00

Selected bullet .308 dia. 180 gr. SBT
Elevation Angle 0.0°
Muzzle Velocity 3250 ft/s
Elevation : 2500 Feet
Maximum Range 6300.09 Yards
Calculated Angle 31.00

Their 22 caliber 55-gr. FMJBT bullet's max range is about 3700 yards.

Hi-speed 22 rimfire bullets' longest max range data I've seen is about 1300 yards; none go out to a mile. RWS says theirs is 1236 yards.

Regarding mechanical computers for military gunfire, here's the origin of those I operated and worked on in the late 1950's aboard two WWII era destroyers.

http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf

Which in my time, they were like this:

http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog/ford.htm

 

[newfalguy101]

I would hazard a guess that the reason .22's have that warning is because people often tend to view .22's with an almost toylike mentality and tend to greatly underestimate the potential danger of said .22.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by lysanderxiii

It is interesting to see know knowledge of a projectile's the trajectory has developed over the years....

There are a number of papers on long range shooting (mainly artillery) from the beginning to the middle of the 19th Century that also state "that once the momentum is expended, the object drops...".

Apparently, the common belief was that the bullet traveled in a straight line aligned with the bore until at some point gravity took over, and it fell to earth....

Years ago, I was tasked to review a draft manual on the 4.2" Mortar and suggest changes.

I got to the part where it said, "When the shell reaches the peak of its trajectory, it begins to lose velocity" and I packed the whole thing up and sent it back with a letter saying the draft was unsalvageable.