ATF Raid in Alabama

[DMF]

Sorry about the thread drift, but Randy Weaver's kid shot the ATF agent after the ATF agent shot his dog.

Randy Weaver went to court but the ATF didn,t show(the first time).
The ATF never came up with the SBS that started the whole thing and Randy Weaver was found innocent and provided with a monetary settlement.

Utah filed charges against Horiuchi, but the Feds pressured them to drop them.

Wow, where do you come up with these lies? Kevin Harris, not Weaver's kid, shot and killed Deputy US Marshal Degan, not an ATF agent.

That resulted when after more than a year of trying to negotiate with Weaver to show up in court, and Weaver refusing, and Weaver and his wife making threats to several people, the US Marshals Service did a recon of his property trying to figure out how to arrest him for failing to appear in court.

The deaths at Ruby Ridge could have easily been avoided if Weaver had come to court to participate in his Constitutionally guaranteed due process rights.

It should also be noted that during the initial arrest of Weaver by ATF resulted in NO injuries despite Weaver pulling a gun on the agents, and his wife trying to get to another gun in their truck. Weaver was released pending trial, and then started issuing threats and refusing to come to court.

Further, when it did go to trial ATF produced both shotguns as evidence and the barrels 5 inches shorter than the legal length. Further, Weaver was not "found innocent" he merely raised the requisite reasonable doubt about whether or not he was entrapped.

Also, Utah didn't file charges against Horiuchi, Idaho did, because the incident happened in Idaho. Further, Idaho did not drop the charges, the case was removed to federal court, and Horiuchi beat the case in federal court.

If you're going to whine about ATF try doing it without lying.

 

[DMF]

I'm not going to try and deny something which is fundamentally untrue. The ATF does not enforce laws, for the most part. What they enforce mandated regulation - nothing law-related.

Another person who chooses to lie.

ATF investigates crimes that are prosecuted in federal courts. You can't get prosecuted for a crime in federal court unless you are accused of breaking a federal law.

Which laws do they enforce?

Here's a sampling:
18USC922(g) - mostly 922(g)(1)
18USC924(c)
18USC924(e)
18USC922(d)
26USC5861
18USC922(o)
18USC931


There are more, but those some of the biggies. Feel free to look them up here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

There is a "watchdog" group out there that tracks performance of some fed agencies, ATF included. You can see what they have to say about what laws ATF enforces here:
http://trac.syr.edu/tracatf/index.html

Again, if you're going to whine about ATF could please do it without lying.

 

[Gifted]

So let me get this straight, all of you are in favor of violent revolution in this country, is that correct?
If so, how do you suggest we go about it? Then once you are sqaushed by every democratic country in the world, how do you expect to restore governmental body to this country? Or would you rather we create an Iraq quagmire here at home too?

It does take more than just some guns to have a revolution. And while I do believe that we are past hte "awkward stage", we still can't do much about it until enough people realize that we're gone. I do have some ideas on how it would have to work, but it's off topic for this thread. I'd be happy to talk to you via PM though.

 

[oobray]

I don't have time for a full reply right now.
But I really would like to thank DMF for some fact help. I was having a hard time gathering all the specifics you did.

Gifted,
I would love to hear it. Maybe we can start a new thread. Or PM me if you would rather do it that way.

 

[DMF]

:banghead:
I'm used to those who wish to villify the ATF posting false information, but it's new to see someone defending the ATF do it on this forum.

Plus, the undercover was still inside and the ATF feared that if this person was to try and leave, he/she would be harmed due to suspicion (which had happened to other davidians).

No he was NOT still inside. The undercover agent, Robert Rodriguez, had left the compound and reported to the raid planners that Howell (aka Koresh) was ranting about the ATF and the National Guard coming for him and the other Branch Davidians.

If you doubt my claim I suggest you read "The Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell also known as David Koresh."

 

[DMF]

It was intended to be similar to a baricaded subject situation. They were intending on surrounding the building, and waiting until David gave himself and the weapons up.

That is also NOT true. After evidence was destroyed when the ATF surrounded the members of the Covenant, Sword, and Arm of the Lord (CSA), when serving those warrants, the US Attorney's Office and ATF decided they wanted to take the Branch Davidians by surprise when they were outside the buildings and away from their weapons to preserve the evidence. They had planned on approaching and entering the compound when the majority of the people were outside and unarmed. Due to the loss of the element of surprise the Branch Davidians were armed and ambushed the agents when they approached.

I wish both sides of these debates would make a better effort to get their facts straight. Posting lies about what happened serves no good purpose.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

didn't horiuchi

take the fifth on the stand? any other fbi guys ever do that in regards to "officially sanctioned" activity before? ever been brought up on charges like he was? j edgar must be spinning in his grave, next to his friend

and wasn't weavers kid shot in the back?

 

[pacodelahoya]

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/weaver.shtml

This is one account of the Ruby ridge incedent.

OK, I got the state wrong, and Harris did kill the agent, after the 14 year old son shot at the agent and was killed because the agent killed the dog after throwing a rock at it. Everything else is in this account, read it for yourself.
If you would like to pm me, I'll happily give you my address so you can come and call me a liar to my face. Sorry I didn't have every fact correct but it has been years since I have actually researched this matter. Oh, it was a quarter inch short on the sbs liar.

 

[pacodelahoya]

Oh, Harris was found not quilty of all charges as was Weaver. By a jury of peers, not the .gov.

Since they were found innocent by the PEOPLE, that woiuld lead me to believe there were hole in the .govs case.

You don't shoot an agent to death and walk away unless the .gov really screwed up.
Think long and hard about which side you CHOOSE to believe.

 

[DMF]

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/weaver.shtml

This is one account of the Ruby ridge incedent.

Here is a much more objective, and much more detailed, synopsis of the events at Ruby Ridge:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html

It's certainly not a "pro government" account, but certainly more objective and more truthful than the trash you linked to.

Sorry I didn't have every fact correct but it has been years since I have actually researched this matter.

You didn't even come close to the correct information, and you are a liar.

Oh, it was a quarter inch short on the sbs liar.

Another lie from you, despite having time to look up the correct information. One shotgun had a 13" barrel, and the other a 12.75" barrel.

A few people have posted the whole DOJ report online. Here's one link:
http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby1.htm

On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter. At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13 inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told Fadeley that he had cut the shotgun barrels himself, "itting under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that, "when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."[FN42] Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver requested an additional $150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told him that he would give him the additional money at the next purchase.[FN43] Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that "[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four or five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.[FN44]

The guns were in fact produced at Weaver's trial, and whether they were 1/4" or 5" shorter than the legal length, they were in fact under 18". The truth, which you obviously have a problem recognizing, is that the shotguns were more than 5" shorter than the legal length and Weaver stated on tape that he cut them down himself. Weavers defense in this matter boiled down to claiming the government tricked him into committing the crime.

BTW, he was not found "innocent" and neither was Harris, they were found not guilty. Anyone who understands the law, understands the significant difference. Also, it's a lie to say Weaver was found not guilty on all charges. He was found guilty and served time for refusing to appear in court. Once again if Weaver had shown up in court the whole tragedy would have been avoided. The person who bears the bulk of the responsibility for the tragedy at Ruby Ridge is Weaver himself.

 

[pacodelahoya]

They were'nt found guilty.

more truthful than the trash you linked

Article came from The American Rifleman.

You trust the .gov, fine, I don't. You can pick nits all you like, the fact remains that Weaver and Harris are free men, after the death of a .gov agent.

That right there should be enough to show any rational person that the .gov was wrong.

 

[DMF]

They were'nt found guilty.

Once again you lie. Weaver was found guilty for failure to appear in federal court, and served time.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/20.html

". . . the jury did find him guilty of failing to appear in court and guilty of violating his bail conditions. Randy was then sentenced to 18 months in jail, 14 of which he had already served and fined him $10,000."

From the trash you linked it also says Weaver was convicted on two counts, "Weaver was found guilty of two counts: failing to appear in court and violating his bail conditions."

I guess you don't even read your own BS.

 

[pacodelahoya]

Which explains why weaver wasn't convicted for the sbs or Harris was convicted of murder.

Like the .gov you are grasping at straws.

 

[Gifted]

Looks like we have an entire page off topic. Perhaps time for lock?