ATF registering firearms

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Ryanxia

Ryanxia

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I was recently given permission to release this letter for general circulation. This was sent to Senator Collins in Maine and has been reviewed by a local attorney.
This is a long letter and I apologize but I will give a quick summary, the details are in the letter. It's long but important to our Freedom and security.

Over the past several months at least, certain ATF agents have been mass copying FFL records of individual form 4473's (the form you fill out when buying a gun). They are bullying FFL's into complying with letting them 'scan' everyone's forms, and lists of people who have purchased firearms. Certain records they are allowed by law to copy (such as in an investigation) and they are allowed to look (but not copy) all the records going back so far during an audit. Many FFL's are complying either out of fear, not knowing the law or just don't want the hassle. Many have stated, 'oh I just let them do their thing and they thank me and go on their way'.
Note the reference at the end of the letter of the Alaska incident and ATF's acknowledgement of the wrong doing.

This thread isn't so much for a legal debate but just to circulate the letter. An attorney specializing in Constitutional law is handling this, that's all the detail I have or will share. This is just to let people know what's going on, first in Alaska now in New England and probably everywhere else.
This FFL cares about his customers enough to challenge vague and illegal acts to obtain their records.

Letter attached. I thought it might be too long to paste.

Edit: Changed .doc to PDF
 

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  • PAC N Arms.pdf
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Big surprise... but thank you (I mean that) for posting this. Like I've posted before, anyone who who thinks our firearms purchases aren't being permanently recorded is naive. This is, in effect, a registry.
 
You're right Mike, and in the letter it states the law that prohibits a national registry.
 
But it's why we have to fight it, why people need to be aware so it's stopped now.
 
When is a registry NOT a registry?

When it's not documented or acknowledged as existing.

Then it's only an unsubstantiated rumor, commonly called "alleged" among those of the legal persuasion.


Once it becomes proven, then it becomes a tangible registration upon which legal action MAY be taken against...however, legal action against does not mean that such records would, or even could, be totally destroyed, especially in today's digital day and age. With that in mind, the only resort left is to bind the government's hands on being able to legally USE any such data ever recovered.

You are right to fight this NOW, as now is the only time we may act to insert large holes and gaps in registered information by denying them access to these records in the first place.
 
So here is the question, what are we going to do about this? The BATF has a long history of now following rules or rgeulations and no one has ever been punished for violating said rules. I don't think in this political climate much change can be rendered. As a gun owner, I feel frustrated and slightly scared about our future as gunowners.
 
The question of what to do dark.zero.x is (for the time being) get this letter/information out to as many sites/people as you can, spread the word so at least there is awareness. Alaska set a precedent (not in court but still) and if people didn't know about it, we couldn't build on it. So spread the word, after that story out of Milwauke about the ATF abuses, these things need to come to light.
 
Not a lot you can do. They'll deny that it ever happened and release several heavily redacted documents then declare there is no scandal. It's a rogue agency under an administration that lacks the will or desire to reign it in.
 
A 'registry' of 4473 really won't be that useful. So many guns have changed hands (or even been created) outside that system that it would be uselessly incomplete. It may be usable for quickly tracking straw purchasers of recovered guns but even then it would be incomplete.

The only real danger of having such a registry is the next step, slippery slope, argument where once used to it it would be retroactively required.
 
Good letter by the owner. Well written, clear and concise presentation of the timeline and issues involved. Keep us informed as to his new FFL. Thanks for posting it.
 
jerkface11 said:
Not a lot you can do. They'll deny that it ever happened and release several heavily redacted documents then declare there is no scandal. It's a rogue agency under an administration that lacks the will or desire to reign it in.
Click to expand...
This wouldn't be released if there wasn't hard evidence :)

MErl - tell the people of NY that are being told to hand in their guns that they registered that there's no harm in registration. Yes in many states private sales are legal but that doesn't change the fact that federal law prohibits a national firearms registration (see letter). This is not something we can shrug off, but as always, every man must make his own choices.

Some will defend Freedom, some will not.
 
MErl - tell the people of NY that are being told to hand in their guns that they registered that there's no harm in registration. Yes in many states private sales are legal but that doesn't change the fact that federal law prohibits a national firearms registration (see letter). This is not something we can shrug off, but as always, every man must make his own choices.
Click to expand...
Oh absolutely fight it. If for no other reason than its marginal use. The case you give is a result of sliding down the slope a bit, once the registry is required it is dangerous.
 
I hope Ryanxia doesn't mind, but I took the liberty of converting his .doc file to PDF.

EDIT: removed PDF since Ryanxia updated the attachment in the original post.
 
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People and their file-extension prejudices...:D

Sounds like more of the same; mass information gathering under the guise of homeland security. Hardly unique to the ATF, honestly.

We'll find out in a year if the continuous drip of abuses being uncovered will end careers, or become the "new normal"

TCB

Keep yer powder inconspicuous and cover your webcams, guys (no, they wouldn't do that...oh, they do?)
 
Sorry guys didn't realize about the doc file, good call.

barnbwt- if we have the attitude of taking this lying down, then we will lose our Freedom. We're all on the same side but something to ponder.
 
Wow, if they scanned the records from Phil's store, I'd be in them. He is a good guy and I admire him taking a stand against this abuse of power.
 
Downeast said:
Wow, if they scanned the records from Phil's store, I'd be in them. He is a good guy and I admire him taking a stand against this abuse of power.
Click to expand...
It sounded like they were doing this in every FFL, Phil was the only one to throw up a red flag and say that it wasn't legal. Other FFL's just said shrugged it off, some leave the agents alone with their records and just go do their thing, some that are computer based just let them pop their thumb drive in and be on their merry way.
 
This is a problem and one the NRA should deal with. A small gun shop can't fight the Federal Government. The Federal government has all kinds of resources and very strong leverage with these businesses.
 
Nothing new here. It may be against the law for the feds to compile a list of guns and owners but the states have been doing this for a long time. Michigan does this. You have to get a permit to buy a pistol and they keep it on file so they can check any gun they come across. I bet all the pistols I bought when I lived there are on the list. However, I moved out of state 23 years ago......chris3
 
ball3006 said:
Nothing new here. It may be against the law for the feds to compile a list of guns and owners but the states have been doing this for a long time. Michigan does this. You have to get a permit to buy a pistol and they keep it on file so they can check any gun they come across. I bet all the pistols I bought when I lived there are on the list. However, I moved out of state 23 years ago......chris3
Click to expand...
Some states require pistol permits, many do not. And while I don't want anyone having 'the list' I am much more concerned with it on a federal level than state.

Little by little is how they are choosing to erode our Rights. If we keep giving ground, or don't care, we'll find ourselves no different than England or Australia (no offense to either of those countries).
 
22-rimfire said:
This is a problem and one the NRA should deal with. A small gun shop can't fight the Federal Government. The Federal government has all kinds of resources and very strong leverage with these businesses.
Click to expand...
That is a very defeatist attitude that gets us nowhere.

While I agree that the NRA could - and probably should - be using their resources to help, it's up to each and every one of us to fight this fight.
 
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