ATF registering firearms

[Ryanxia]

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any more coming of this than Fast and Furious. A federal agency is openly flouting federal law, again, and the Walmartians/Low Information Voters just shrug and move on.

One possible outcome is that FFL's in America realize (after this becomes a precedent) that they do not have to allow their entire records to be copied. If even 50% of FFL's going forward stopped allowing this, it would be a HUGE step in protecting our Rights.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ For that to make any difference we'll need a database of FLLs that stand up to this tyranny so we can avoid those who don't.

 

[theautobahn]

For that to make any difference we'll need a database of FLLs that stand up to this tyranny so we can avoid those who don't.

I respectfully disagree. Now that you know that the ATF scans bound books and now that you know it's not legal (without permission), why do you need a list of FFL's? Just ask any FFL you plan on buying a gun from if they allow this practice. Preferably in a loud voice in front of a lot of customers. Everyone should get in the habit of asking their FFL if they allow their books to be scanned or downloaded willy-nilly.

 

[AnthonySmithXR]

One possible outcome is that FFL's in America realize (after this becomes a precedent) that they do not have to allow their entire records to be copied. If even 50% of FFL's going forward stopped allowing this, it would be a HUGE step in protecting our Rights.

It has to start somewhere! Compliance is tyranny!

 

[r1derbike]

When civvies have fear of their own gov then it ceases to be a free state. That should be alarming for most of you and the fact is, the fear is growing. There are more and more people bullied by the overreaching arm of the law everyday. if this is indeed legitimate then I applaud Mr. Chabot for his efforts and I think we all need to do whatever we can to help. Has anyone contacted the NRA about this? I know some people at the BATFE, but I have no idea if they would help out on anything like this for fear of their jobs or some other penalty. its going to take someone with great courage to take this on.

My brother, who works in a Walmart sporting goods section, has been told to give ATF access to all their records, paper or digital. All of it. They come-in and copy everything they can. It frustrates him, as he knows it's illegal, and would be fired if he said anything.

When our own government deems itself high-and-mighty, and the rule of law doesn't apply to them, it won't be long before citizens avail that same mindset.

(cue chaos)

 

[Bubbles]

One question that arose from this is that if the IOI inspectors are scanning 4473's willy-nilly (or downloading electronic records of 4473's) and the information falls into the wrong hands, that means that those people who chose to put their social security number on their would be at MAJOR risk of identity theft - who is liable? The ATF? Maybe. The FFL? Almost certainly.

I do not use eNICS but have read into what it can and can not do. Supposedly (I'll put my tin-foil hat on now) it only transmits the same data to FBI NICS that FFL's give when they call in the background check. Supposedly.

The more worrisome part to me is that it permits FFL's to save PDF files of the 4473's generated on the computer's hard drive. There is more than enough information on those to interest any ID thief; a criminal in a gun shop would be stupid to sell guns out the back door when he could sell copies of pg 1 and 2 of the 4473 and make a lot more money with much less risk of being prosecuted or imprisoned even if caught.

Most FFL's are not tech-savvy, and I'd bet even the ones that are don't store those PDF's on an encrypted drive. So, if your transfer dealer uses eNICS pray that no one swipes his computer.

My brother, who works in a Walmart sporting goods section, has been told to give ATF access to all their records, paper or digital. All of it. They come-in and copy everything they can. It frustrates him, as he knows it's illegal, and would be fired if he said anything.

It is not illegal for the ATF to ask for the info. It is illegal for the ATF to demand it. If WalMart or any FFL chooses to turn over that info as a matter of corporate policy that is not illegal, though it is a good reason for me as a buyer to avoid purchasing firearms from that FFL.

FWIW I have only had one federal agent show up with a scanner to get copies of my records. He was from the FBI, had a subpoena, and it was very specific that we were to provde the records on just one individual. Buying new from a retailer and then selling privately normally isn't a problem... unless you sell more than one gun that ends up at a crime scene. Then the authorities take notice.

 

[Ryanxia]

I respectfully disagree. Now that you know that the ATF scans bound books and now that you know it's not legal (without permission), why do you need a list of FFL's? Just ask any FFL you plan on buying a gun from if they allow this practice. Preferably in a loud voice in front of a lot of customers. Everyone should get in the habit of asking their FFL if they allow their books to be scanned or downloaded willy-nilly.

I can't speak as to what PAC N Arms will do but I hope at some point we'll start pushing this subject and getting people to start asking FFL's, the more that ask and the more that realize you CAN do it without reprisal (assuming this case ends well) the more that might not comply. Of course, how do we weed out the liars?

And like it was said, it is not illegal if the FFL voluntarily gives it up, just if they demand it. Personally I feel safer knowing there's someone willing to protect my information.

 

[Mike1234567]

I can't speak as to what PAC N Arms will do but I hope at some point we'll start pushing this subject and getting people to start asking FFL's, the more that ask and the more that realize you CAN do it without reprisal (assuming this case ends well) the more that might not comply. Of course, how do we weed out the liars?

And like it was said, it is not illegal if the FFL voluntarily gives it up, just if they demand it. Personally I feel safer knowing there's someone willing to protect my information.

Impossible.

 

[MartinS]

"However, when the letter of the law is clearly against what they're trying to get you to do and they have no legal authority to do what they're attempting to do, then it's a losing battle in court for them. And to lose in court is to officially document not only what they were doing illegally, but the FACT that they lost the battle doing so."

Thanks Chief.

 

[AnthonySmithXR]

The laws and regulations make absolutely no difference to this or previous administrations. That is the problem. They think they are above the law. And, in practice, they are above the law.

 

[Ryanxia]

There are other organizations involved in this now, I will leave it at that until something concrete happens.

By all means though, keep the dialog going, this isn't something that should be shrugged off. Ask if YOUR local gunshop is allowing them blanket access to your records.

 

[Bill50]

Good idea...I work with Word files all the time and often forget one of the primary purposes of converting them to pdf files: They can't be altered or edited by someone else.

Yes they can. There just aren't many free tools compatible with Windows that can alter them, so most people don't know about it. Even if you "protect" them from being altered, they can easily be cracked or converted to another format, altered, and re-pdf'ed

 

[yzguy87]

Thanks for sharing Ryanxia! I will definitely pass this on to my FFL and will ask him what he allows ATF agents to do when they audit him. I will see him within the next week or so to have a new rifle transferred.

 

[SunnySlopes]

A 'registry' of 4473 really won't be that useful.

It's still a registry.

I was living in california when this happened. Two people were murdered in their sleep by somebody using a Marlin Camp Carbine. The police went to all the area gun dealers and asked to peruse their 4473s. (FFLs have to keep them for 20 years. If the FFL goes out of business before that, the 4473s go to the ATF.)

Anyway, to a dealer, they complied. The police then went to the homes of everybody who had bought such a Marlin and "requested" to run a ballistics check just to rule that particular gun out.

IIRC, every owner physically turned over their Camp Carbine to the police.

Only the naive would suggest that the 4473 isn't gun registration. And only the naive would believe that when push comes to shove, the Storm Troopers won't use them to identify the enemy.

 

[itsa pain]

I cant believe a govt lackey has not come on here telling the posters they are paranoid this is not happening, give evidence you are causing needless unrest, law enforcement is pro gun etc. I remember not to long ago BATF was at a gun show and 90% of the posters said what professionals real nice guys they are on our side.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Consider a simple military tactic, if you want an example of what it means to have 4473's at the beck and call of authorities:

An enemy force attacks and invades a foreign country and occupies the territory.

Sound military doctrine is to root out and capture all effective means of armed rebellion by both the military and the civilians. To that end, any documentation that can be captured and used as intelligence to most effectively focus efforts to do so will be used.

Most certainly any such documents which are similar to Form 4473's would be considered valuable and effective in assisting such efforts.


If they would be valuable to any invading military force, what makes people think they WOULDN'T be valuable and effective in home territory for the same thing?

 

[Poper]

Buying new from a retailer and then selling privately normally isn't a problem... unless you sell more than one gun that ends up at a crime scene. Then the authorities take notice.

I'm guessing there probably is a story in there somewhere....

Poper

 

[barnbwt]

Buying new from a retailer and then selling privately normally isn't a problem... unless you sell more than one gun that ends up at a crime scene.

I assume you're alluding to straw purchases or gun-running? Buying from a retailer and then selling privately also makes you a "dealer" in the eyes of the ATF* for which you must have a license to avoid fines or jail time... If they find you are also being an unscrupulous seller and selling to shady folks or merely acting as a vehicle to get peoples' guns "off the books" its a sure ride to the furniture factory for you

*Subject to whatever they define "being in the business of firearms" as meaning that day of the week

TCB

 

[Ryanxia]

I would be very curious to hear what some other members get for answers when they ask their FFL about this.

Just ask him/her; 'So what happens when you get inspected by the ATF?'
A lot will say something along the lines of 'oh they just go out back and do their thing' if the gunshop is leaving them unattended during the inspection then you can bet your butt they are copying everything in there.

Another thing to think about; if they ever do pass the 'arsenal tax' they've been trying for, a good place to start investigating people is with these 4473 records if it looks like you buy more than 1 or 2 guns a year there is a good chance you've got a collection (arsenal).

 

[itsa pain]

Not to long ago a guy posted that the BATF had a booth at a gun show he attended and he said he did not like the idea. Well he was attacked by 95% of the guys that posted for being paranoid, starting a war, conspiracy nut, leo's are on our side they are good guys etc. Hmmm so which is it?

 

[Bubbles]

I would be very curious to hear what some other members get for answers when they ask their FFL about this.

Just ask him/her; 'So what happens when you get inspected by the ATF?'

Based on conversations I've had with my IOI's over the years, as well as with other folks who work over at 244 Needy Road, what happens during a compliance inspection and how often an FFL gets inspected is closely related to how many errors were found during prior inspections, the types of errors found, the number of traces he gets, the types of traces he gets, and how quickly he responds to traces. So different FFL's will give different answers.

 

[MErl]

It's still a registry.

I was living in california when this happened. Two people were murdered in their sleep by somebody using a Marlin Camp Carbine. The police went to all the area gun dealers and asked to peruse their 4473s. (FFLs have to keep them for 20 years. If the FFL goes out of business before that, the 4473s go to the ATF.)

Did they find anything from this combing of 4473 or was it a waste of time because the registry was incomplete?

 

[Midwest]

Another thing to think about; if they ever do pass the 'arsenal tax' they've been trying for, a good place to start investigating people is with these 4473 records if it looks like you buy more than 1 or 2 guns a year there is a good chance you've got a collection (arsenal).

Yes and there was a proposal under Brady II for an "arsenal tax" disguised as an "arsenal license". Brady II never advanced to Go and it was dropped. But it is scary what they DID propose.

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1190402417.shtml


Arsenal licensing

"Any person who owns 20 or more firearms or more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition or primers (e.g. two "bricks" of rimfire ammo) would be required to get an "arsenal" license. To obtain a federal arsenal license, a person would need to be fingerprinted, obtain permission of local zoning authorities, and pay a $300 tax every three years. Her home would be subjected to unannounced, warrantless inspection by the government up to three times a year. "Arsenal" owners would also have to obtain a $100,000 dollar insurance policy.

"Brady II" redefines "firearm" to include magazines and "any part of the action" (such as pins, springs, or screws). Thus, if a person has two Colt pistols, three Remington rifles, and four magazines (of any size) for each gun, then he own an "arsenal." Or if he owned two guns, six magazines, and a box of disassembled gun parts that contained five springs, five pins, and five screws, then he would own 23 "firearms" and would have to obtain an "arsenal" license."

Further information at https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/103/hr3932/text

H.R. 3932 (103rd): Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1994

"SEC. 204. FEDERAL ARSENAL LICENSE.

(a) OFFENSE- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 203(a), is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:

‘(x) It shall be unlawful for a person to possess more than 20 firearms or more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition unless the person--

‘(1) is a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer; or

‘(2) has been issued an arsenal license pursuant to section 923(m).’.

(b) ARSENAL LICENSE- Section 923 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 203(b), is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:

‘(m)(1) The Secretary shall issue an arsenal license if--

‘(A) the applicant has--

‘(i) filed a sworn application with the Secretary, stating--

‘(I) the applicant’s name, address, and date of birth;

‘(II) that the applicant is at least 21 years of age; and

‘(III) that the applicant is not prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under Federal, State, or local law;

‘(ii) filed with the Secretary a certificate, dated within the previous 60 days, from the chief law enforcement officer of the applicant’s State of residence, stating that the applicant has not exhibited such a propensity for violence, instability, or disregard of the law as may render the applicant’s possession of an arsenal a danger to the community; and

‘(iii) paid an arsenal license fee of $300 for a 3-year license period; and

‘(B) the Secretary has determined that the information in the application is accurate, based in part upon name- and fingerprint-based research in all available Federal, State, and local recordkeeping systems.

‘(2) The holder of an arsenal license shall be subject to all obligations and requirements pertaining to licensed dealers under this chapter.’.

(c) PENALTY- Section 924(a)(5) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 203(c), is amended by striking ‘or (w)’ and inserting ‘(w), or (x)’.

(d) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall become effective on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act."


While non of this passed, there is no guarantee that they won't try to resurrect it again in the future.

 

[SunnySlopes]

Did they find anything from this combing of 4473 or was it a waste of time

It was a waste of time because they learned that murderers don't buy their guns through normal channels. The killer was never caught.

 

[Ryanxia]

Based on conversations I've had with my IOI's over the years, as well as with other folks who work over at 244 Needy Road, what happens during a compliance inspection and how often an FFL gets inspected is closely related to how many errors were found during prior inspections, the types of errors found, the number of traces he gets, the types of traces he gets, and how quickly he responds to traces. So different FFL's will give different answers.

I guess the point is do they leave them alone with their books, and/or do they allow them to copy information that does not contain errors or relate to an investigation.

Also, the FFL in the original letter I don't believe had any errors, he runs a pretty tight ship when it comes to that.

Thanks for the reference Midwest, I remember reading that when it originally came out. Scary stuff that just could get pushed through one day.