ATF registering firearms

Status
Not open for further replies.
When civvies have fear of their own gov then it ceases to be a free state. That should be alarming for most of you and the fact is, the fear is growing. There are more and more people bullied by the overreaching arm of the law everyday. if this is indeed legitimate then I applaud Mr. Chabot for his efforts and I think we all need to do whatever we can to help. Has anyone contacted the NRA about this? I know some people at the BATFE, but I have no idea if they would help out on anything like this for fear of their jobs or some other penalty. its going to take someone with great courage to take this on.
 
Has anyone contacted the NRA about this?
I have contacted the NRA-ILA, SAF & GOA and asked how I can get the original letter to them, there is no way to attach files to their online contact page. I'll keep you guys updated if/when I get a response from them.
 
Last edited:
That is a very defeatist attitude that gets us nowhere.

While I agree that the NRA could - and probably should - be using their resources to help, it's up to each and every one of us to fight this fight.

Perhaps, but it is -REALITY-. As an independent home based FFL, I have the financial resources to put up a legal fight with the federal government for, oh, a good 10 minutes or so.
 
Perhaps, but it is -REALITY-. As an independent home based FFL, I have the financial resources to put up a legal fight with the federal government for, oh, a good 10 minutes or so.

Hiring an attorney, while certainly expensive, is but one of many options available to push back against an overly zealous and oppressive government agency.

If we accept the premise that the government is 'too big to fight', we have already lost.
 
OT but related (legal costs): Many years ago I tried to hire an attorney to deal with a Human Resources situation at a Federal job I had. She was a retired AF Colonel and stated very clearly that, yes, should definitely win the case. But... she needed a $5K retainer because the AF attorneys would keep the appeals and red tape going forever and I'd never collect in my lifetime. She suggested I refuse to continue as I was demanded. This is precisely what I did and the abuses and threats eventually stopped after I showed them their own Federal regulations and laws. But I never saw a dime of compensation.
 
It's one of Eric Holder's programs. He's just wanting to know how many more guns he can send to the Mexican drug cartels. :cool:
 
they are not supposed to copy the 4473's, the NSA isn't supposed to monitor private conversations, emails, phone calls. etc. The FBI isn't supposed to execute a woman "armed" with a baby-all w/o repercussions. Slowly and surely the police state is coming upon us.
 
they are not supposed to copy the 4473's, the NSA isn't supposed to monitor private conversations, emails, phone calls. etc. The FBI isn't supposed to execute a woman "armed" with a baby-all w/o repercussions. Slowly and surely the police state is coming upon us.


Yea!! Someone gets it!! Yea!!
 
This is nothing new. Earlier this year, when I purchased a gun at my local pawn shop, the owner told me that when the ATF does an inspection, they download his electronic records (Bound book) to a thumb drive, photocopy his 4473’s and take them with them. I questioned him about it at the time and all he said was that when the ATF says jump, he jumps or loses his FFL. Actually, I posted a comment on this almost a year ago.
 
This is nothing new. Earlier this year, when I purchased a gun at my local pawn shop, the owner told me that when the ATF does an inspection, they download his electronic records (Bound book) to a thumb drive, photocopy his 4473’s and take them with them. I questioned him about it at the time and all he said was that when the ATF says jump, he jumps or loses his FFL. Actually, I posted a comment on this almost a year ago.

Interesting.

If any gun dealer told me this, I'd never buy from him again.

I value my privacy and rights, especially in this day and age. Protecting my PII is important to me, and somebody who told me to my face that they didn't care to protect my PII in accordance with the requirements of the law and would deliberately give my PII to any agency who demonstrates a complete disregard for the requirements of the law as well immediately loses my patronage.

Another dealer may do the same thing without me knowing, sure...but tell me something like that to my face seals the deal for me.
 
If any gun dealer told me this, I'd never buy from him again.
Bingo. This isn't just one gun shop they're doing this to I believe it's multiple. Part of getting this story out to everyone is so that other FFL's know their Rights and know they can protect their customers' privacy and information.
 
We know what this is leading to. This is a long range plan folks. Eventually in order to keep your registered gun you will bear an ever heavier burden of having to prove you "need" it; any not on the registry will be considered contraband and woe to he w/o it on said registry. Why else would this defacto registration be happening? To fight crime? That would be a ludacris assumption since the PTB know full well the average street punk probably lacks the intelligence to fill out a 4473, likely stole the gun he has and certainly isn't going to comply w/ any legal requirements imposed upon legit gun owners.

Cross referencing 4473s w/ internet/phone traffic by said registrant will incriminate a lot of people who have uttered whatever the gov't defines as seditious commentary and off you go to be "reeducated". Right now this cross referencing would be a herculean task beyond human capacity to compile, but wait a few years as the NSA's computing power grows and this could be accomplished handily.

I am all for the gov't doing all it can w/in the scope of the constitution to snatch up terrorists.
 
I can think of no other reason than disarmament for keeping such records... well maybe for taxation.

Sheep without guns... are just sheep.
 
I can think of no other reason than disarmament for keeping such records... well maybe for taxation.

Sheep without guns... are just sheep.

Except those records are so woefully incomplete they cannot be used for disarmament or taxation. Registration must be retroactively mandatory for confiscation to work, to the point where unregistered guns can be easily identified and owners prosecuted.

A list of 4473 sales will not do that. A list of 4473 and A&D can maybe be used to quickly identify straw purchasers by working back from recovered guns. That is about all it can do and the only advantage over distributed records there is the word 'quickly'

Argue against this because it is against the law and useless. Do not argue against this database as a prelude to confiscation. There are many much more intrusive steps to get anywhere near that point (think a carried license listing your guns) which the ATF cannot take unilaterally.
 
MErl - I'm thinking more along the lines of making a list of those they see that own several firearms, making a list of the biggest 'potentials'. Also the asking for it is bad enough but threatening to make arrests/ get warrants/ revoke a license is quite another.

Let's not forget either, an ATF agent is just another person with their own credit/debt and getting someone's name, address, DOB, DL# & Social Security number can be mighty tempting (a lot of people put their full SSN on their 4473 forms).
 
Ryanxia, you bring up another good reason to fight this, abuse of power by the ATF. (comply or lose your livelihood)

I'm mainly trying to get across this is not a blue helmet moment :)
 
Except those records are so woefully incomplete they cannot be used for disarmament or taxation. Registration must be retroactively mandatory for confiscation to work, to the point where unregistered guns can be easily identified and owners prosecuted.

A list of 4473 sales will not do that. A list of 4473 and A&D can maybe be used to quickly identify straw purchasers by working back from recovered guns. That is about all it can do and the only advantage over distributed records there is the word 'quickly'

Argue against this because it is against the law and useless. Do not argue against this database as a prelude to confiscation. There are many much more intrusive steps to get anywhere near that point (think a carried license listing your guns) which the ATF cannot take unilaterally.

Methinks you're missing the point, or perhaps misunderstanding the full scope of what it means to collect such data in the first place.

Collecting data from such records is still a darn good start. All that data simply goes into a central database, from which it can be manipulated, analyzed, and cross-referenced any number of ways with any amount of information from other databases.

With computers and programming the way they are today, this is not a difficult task at all. Websites do this all the time. Ever hear all the uproar about sites like Google and online sales sites collecting information? A little information here and a little information there and it's not long before you can make AMAZING deductions about any given person.

Add a database to this mix which is loaded simply with Form 4473 stuff and you've got a HUGE start.

So what if the addresses might be out of date with some? They've STILL got a name and SSN, and with that information and that'll track you to your grave.

So what if you no longer have some of the firearms? It's STILL a darn good starting point...and all such an apparent "dead end" is when it comes to a database is simply another known puzzle piece waiting for another piece of the puzzle to be fitted to it automatically as the database grows from various sources.

And don't kid yourself about whether or not something like this either can be done or whether it's ever been done. It's ongoing, each and every day. Espionage, whether corporate, governmental, or international, has been going on for thousands of years and those that are involved in it are VERY good at it.

"Loose lips sink ships" was a WWII slogan which emphasized the fact that ANY amount of information can be deadly in the hands of the enemy...who most assuredly is collecting many thousands of seemingly random pieces of data and actively working to integrate them into meaningful information which can be used to their profit.


It does not matter if the Form 4473's are incomplete. All that matters is that the forms exist and are accurately filled out at the time of the sale. It's a known starting point.

And, if people REALLY want to be paranoid...the government doesn't REALLY have to collect this data in the fashion that has been pointed out here. They simply have to know who all the licensed FFL dealers are, who are REQUIRED to maintain meticulous records and who are subject to periodic audits to confirm these records are, in fact, being meticulously maintained.

If they ever decide they actually want to start taking firearms based on these records, all they really have to do is make the decision and TAKE them.


But unless, and until, the government actually takes such a drastic move, it is the duty of those who collect and maintain those records as part of their business to do so in full compliance with the law...which necessarily includes restricting unauthorized access to those records and the recording of data from them.

Don't make it easy for them.
 
This is nothing new. Earlier this year, when I purchased a gun at my local pawn shop, the owner told me that when the ATF does an inspection, they download his electronic records (Bound book) to a thumb drive, photocopy his 4473’s and take them with them. I questioned him about it at the time and all he said was that when the ATF says jump, he jumps or loses his FFL. Actually, I posted a comment on this almost a year ago.

Ryanxia and I both frequent the same shop. The ease of access to the records is the EXACT reason that pac n arms refuses to do electronic 4473's. It's just too easy for the ATF to grab everything in one fell swoop.

If any gun dealer told me this, I'd never buy from him again.

Exactly. More people need to have this attitude. I don't want to put any FFL out of business, but they need to be more scared of losing customers than of the ATF.

Wow, if they scanned the records from Phil's store, I'd be in them. He is a good guy and I admire him taking a stand against this abuse of power.

They TRIED scanning the records. ;)

A small gun shop can't fight the Federal Government.

You've never met the customers of this particular shop... :)
 
A small gun shop can't fight the Federal Government.


You've never met the customers of this particular shop... :)

Thank you!

In cases where the law is clear cut, you CAN fight the federal government. They may harass you any number of ways, yes...and of course it's entirely possible to lose on many levels, as it's been pointed out before, such as court costs and lost business. But that can be factored into a law suit as damages.

However, when the letter of the law is clearly against what they're trying to get you to do and they have no legal authority to do what they're attempting to do, then it's a losing battle in court for them. And to lose in court is to officially document not only what they were doing illegally, but the FACT that they lost the battle doing so.

Having your ducks in a row by having such pristing records is a darned good help. Researching and trying to spread the word is another way to help. I'm not an attorney, but might it be possible to turn something like this into a class action law suit? Interesting question for the attorneys on THR.
 
One question that arose from this is that if the IOI inspectors are scanning 4473's willy-nilly (or downloading electronic records of 4473's) and the information falls into the wrong hands, that means that those people who chose to put their social security number on their would be at MAJOR risk of identity theft - who is liable? The ATF? Maybe. The FFL? Almost certainly.
 
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any more coming of this than Fast and Furious. A federal agency is openly flouting federal law, again, and the Walmartians/Low Information Voters just shrug and move on.
 
What was that Frank Zappa said about the illusion of freedom in America? It must be less profitable to the powers that be these days. In the last couple months we've finally learned definitively that;

-Your call logs are bugged
-Your phone calls are bugged (or readily hackable by automatons)
-Your phone location is bugged
-Your search/browse/uploading/typing history is bugged
-Your webcam is bugged
-Your facetube profile/postings are bugged
-Your vehicle's OnStar is bugged (and location logged)
-Your smart TV/thermostat/fridge/etc. is bugged
-There's a dossier on each and every one of us
-Every major industry player is thoroughly enmeshed and complicit in these activities
-The .gov is aleady learning how to use the data they collect ahead of time to discredit terrorists as they develop

Yeesh. Apparently absolute access to data corrupts even more than money or power. I even found an old post the other day from 2000 about that Echelon intelligence program (I'd totally forgotten about it :eek:) and it's potential/actual abuse. This stuff's been going on since the very dawn of the web, it seems.

Anyone remember how the deep, dark, corrupting secret of the police force in the thriller Se7en was that the cops kept records of what library books were checked out by each cardholder for profiling? Those were the days; now we expect that from every third-rate ad company :rolleyes:

TCB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top