brboyer
Member
There's room for three on each form, right? So a crooked dealer could put the OP's on and two other's that he sold illegally.....just saying.
ATF visited my dealer over multiple handgun purchases
- Thread starter c5_nc
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There's room for three on each form, right? So a crooked dealer could put the OP's on and two other's that he sold illegally.....just saying.
If you appear to be anti govt paranoid and alarmist, you will be treated that way. I have had good and not so good experiences with police, feds, courts etc. When you think that everyone is out to get you, then you have a problem that goes beyond what can be discussed here. If you are intimidated easily and cannot resist the temtation to admit to the candy bar you took when you were 8 years old, you best not speak to anyone. Men who can look others in the eye knowing that they did no wrong, don't need to pay someone to "spin" their actions. The more you try to evade questions that you can easily answer, the worse it will go for you. It's common sense, if you are making more work for a guy who just needs to fill out a report so he can move on to the next case, he is now going to take an interest as to what your motives are. The guys at PP in NYC have those pistol buster posters on the wall, and yes some of them get off on taking away citizens guns, but you know what pisses them off more, when a guy refuses to speak to them. Because its a privalidge there not a right.So depending on where you live and what the local laws are your situation may vary, but in general short honest direct answers to pertinent legal questions usually get them off your case.
leadcounsel
member
Did you have bad experiences because you were
?
- nonsense. He'll either fill out the form with nothing of note or they'll contact your attorney and that'll frustrate the process so they'll move on, or they'll pursue it further (but with no ammunition).
Deanimator
Member
They'll treat me in whatever way is prescribed by law. If they don't, they'll have a bad day.
I couldn't care less what pisses them off. It sounds like a personal problem to me. They don't have to like the law, merely obey it.
Gunfighter123
Member
gym ---- I didn't really see a reply from you about my rebuttle --- Post # 186 . Other then you PMed the OP to get a update from him.
I take it this quote from you is just YOUR thoughts on it ----- I sure hope it is not Legal Advise !!! Now I have to worry about my masculinity whenever I call my Lawyer !!!
looking forward to your reply to Post #186.
I take it this quote from you is just YOUR thoughts on it ----- I sure hope it is not Legal Advise !!! Now I have to worry about my masculinity whenever I call my Lawyer !!!
looking forward to your reply to Post #186.
No I actually was allowed a 2nd gun after a home invasion where they automatically pull your permit in NYC. After talking to the top cop down at PP, and explaining that now it made no sense for me to be unarmed now, he agreed and gave me a second purchase order. That is unheard of. In another incident I listened to an attorney who advised me to approach a problem with some Super vel cartrages in a certain manner. He totally screwed everything up. His advise cost me 6 months of "no gun" until I straightnened it out in court myself by showing the judge the purchase order for the gun and the bulletts from the same gun shop on the same day. To which the judge said "how is he supposed to know these are illegal if he bought them legally in a gun shop along with the gun. Just because you guys have a Law degree dosen't mean you are right all the time, thus the amount of cases lost are pretty close to those won. When you are a wise guy and refuse to answer questions and ask for a lawyer when it's a straight up yes or no question, you only draw suspician to yourself. The court waited to see if I was going to sue the dept before returning my guns and re-instating my permitt.In good old NYC you also need to go before a "captains hearing" where my attorney was also useless and didn't know what to say when confronted by an aggressive Captain who does this all day. Thank god I stepped in and told him that there were grave errors on his report that I could prove, he stoped recording and asked me what they were. One was that I was not married at the time or ever "back then", "had nothing to do with anything right" wrong, he said ok the interview is over. My attorney said "I don't think we did so well" I looked at him and said "you have to be kidding" I could hear him screaming down the hall. The permit came back two days later reinstated. I believe that if you know how to speak up for yourself and when to do so, you can handle most things by yourself. I use attorneys for closings, and matters that I don't have a good enough understanding of. But from the expeiences I have had with 5 or 6 attorneys, I found that the make good friends but I don't let them lead the parade as it's not their butt on the line. My friend here in FL is a very cut and dry guy, he will say "either "you need me or you don't need me for this" most times it's "you don't need me", he did 2 closings in 1 day for me and the wife, back to back, for $400.00. Now that's a friend. I find also that attorneys tend to blame each other for your predicament, like "if I would have been representing you, that never would have happened". Half the time you really don't need them. I understand federal cases are very complicated, but why make a problem befor one exists. When a Federal cop comes a calling, they allready have the facts, they just want clarification most times or they would either be arresting you, or asking for you to surrender yourself at a time and place of their choosing. If they are calling you with a question and you get all feaky with them, you are just making it worse. It's like the IRS, maybe they owe you money, lol
Deanimator
Member
They have the "latitude" to obey the law. Step outside of that and there are consequences. I have to obey the law. They do to, and will, one way or the other.
I think this is one of the more frustrating and contentious topics that can come up on the net.
The idea of asserting and protecting your rights or asserting your rights for your own protection is one of those concepts you either get or you don't.
I believe that some of us have been so indocrinated that "Officer Freindly" is our friend from childhood that their mind simply will not grasp any other reality.
How many of us remember learning to read on "Peter Pat and the Policeman"?
Bottom line, I protect my rights, I decline all voluntary contact W/ the local Constabulary. I deny all requests for searches and do not speak to the police W/out an attorney present.
If you choose not to avail yourself of these protections then don't. But, don't come back here whinning when you stick your penis in a beartrap
The idea of asserting and protecting your rights or asserting your rights for your own protection is one of those concepts you either get or you don't.
I believe that some of us have been so indocrinated that "Officer Freindly" is our friend from childhood that their mind simply will not grasp any other reality.
How many of us remember learning to read on "Peter Pat and the Policeman"?
Bottom line, I protect my rights, I decline all voluntary contact W/ the local Constabulary. I deny all requests for searches and do not speak to the police W/out an attorney present.
If you choose not to avail yourself of these protections then don't. But, don't come back here whinning when you stick your penis in a beartrap
Your first sentence is correct, the rest is subjective. And i drawn on by your personel experiences. I don't wine, I make my own decisions, when I am asked my opinion I give it, if it differs fom yours, so be it that's what makes mine my opinion and yours your opinion. No one is right all of the time, but the op asked a question, if he was sure of what to do he wouln't have asked it, it's his responsibility to look at which way he wishes to proceed once he does or doesn't evaluate more information. You can be sure my penis will be fine
NavyLCDR
member
luigi said:
Absolutely, luigi! Very well said. And I also think it is a very sad state that we have allowed ourselves to come to when there are so many people out there, even so called RTKBA supporters, that equate standing up for one's rights as behavior that is suspicious of criminal activity. That correlation is abhorrent to me.
Officers'Wife
Member
Make sure you inform all present that the encounter is being recorded.
Deanimator
Member
ABSOLUTELY not required in Ohio.
Here you may record any conversation to which you are a party, and without anyone's permission or indeed their knowledge.
Clark
Member
17 years ago I ordered two Tokarev pistols for $80 each.
I picked them up at the FFL and found out later a form had been filled out and I had been reported for multiple pistol purchases.
I switched FFLs.
Now if I want more than one of a pistol in shotgun news, AIM Surplus, Century Arms, etc, I make a trip per week to pick them up.
I never sell any handguns face to face private sale.
I always sell through a consignment pawn shop.
Call me paranoid, but I don't want the law knocking on my door asking how a handgun I bought wound up in a bad situation.
I picked them up at the FFL and found out later a form had been filled out and I had been reported for multiple pistol purchases.
I switched FFLs.
Now if I want more than one of a pistol in shotgun news, AIM Surplus, Century Arms, etc, I make a trip per week to pick them up.
I never sell any handguns face to face private sale.
I always sell through a consignment pawn shop.
Call me paranoid, but I don't want the law knocking on my door asking how a handgun I bought wound up in a bad situation.
nalioth
Member
Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid that situation.Clark said:
You will always be one link in the chain, no matter how you dispose of your firearms.
The problem is that
Do need to have an attorney because the men they are dealing with may not care whether or not they can look you in the eye and say that they did no wrong. Some indeed I would argue many LEO's, government bureaucrats, and politicians are past masters at taking anything said and turning it into something that means whatever suits their agenda. Someone not used to dealing with that system and/or mentality needs a pro to help them through the pitfalls.
If you get lucky and have to answer questions for someone who is honestly only interested in the truth that's great, but odds are they have to pass the report on to others. Eventually you're luck runs out.
Do need to have an attorney because the men they are dealing with may not care whether or not they can look you in the eye and say that they did no wrong. Some indeed I would argue many LEO's, government bureaucrats, and politicians are past masters at taking anything said and turning it into something that means whatever suits their agenda. Someone not used to dealing with that system and/or mentality needs a pro to help them through the pitfalls.
If you get lucky and have to answer questions for someone who is honestly only interested in the truth that's great, but odds are they have to pass the report on to others. Eventually you're luck runs out.
jonmerritt
Member.
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I was questioned for multiple purchases in the same day. I was nice and respected why they were there. When They learned that I still had all that I had purchased over the last several years, I got a "thank you for your time" and "sorry to inconvienience you, have a nice weekend" I was not bothered over another multiple purchase after that. And they had records for everything I had purchased through various FFL dealers. They keep track of what we buy.
Gouranga
Member
Really guys, if you want to request an attorney, as your own personal experiences/beliefs have taught you, then that is absolutely your right to do so.
I do not think (I may be wrong as I cannot read minds) that posters here say you are being suspicious in doing so, but that the authorities may take it that way.
My personal experience, I would be courteous, answer reasonable questions yes/no (reasonable being my own judgment), if at any time, they become less than courteous, or their tone or line of questions go in a direction that makes me nervous, I will end the conversation and tell them to contact my attorney. Maybe more of a middle of the road approach but to date I have had pretty good interactions with law enforcement on the rare occasion I deal with them.
It has also been said the ATF guys are nowhere near normal law enforcement. I have not had the pleasure/displeasure of ever talking to them so I will have to defer to your experiences there. However, if one or more were to come to my door, and ask me questions, I would likely follow the same policies I have listed above. If they are as you have said I would bet that interaction would end quickly and I would be calling a lawyer.
I think there is a low risk of that for me as I do not frequently purchase addition items for my collection. I suspect those of you who do (I AM jealous of that BTW), would be more likely to run into them and "know the drill." with the various agencies.
I do not think (I may be wrong as I cannot read minds) that posters here say you are being suspicious in doing so, but that the authorities may take it that way.
My personal experience, I would be courteous, answer reasonable questions yes/no (reasonable being my own judgment), if at any time, they become less than courteous, or their tone or line of questions go in a direction that makes me nervous, I will end the conversation and tell them to contact my attorney. Maybe more of a middle of the road approach but to date I have had pretty good interactions with law enforcement on the rare occasion I deal with them.
It has also been said the ATF guys are nowhere near normal law enforcement. I have not had the pleasure/displeasure of ever talking to them so I will have to defer to your experiences there. However, if one or more were to come to my door, and ask me questions, I would likely follow the same policies I have listed above. If they are as you have said I would bet that interaction would end quickly and I would be calling a lawyer.
I think there is a low risk of that for me as I do not frequently purchase addition items for my collection. I suspect those of you who do (I AM jealous of that BTW), would be more likely to run into them and "know the drill." with the various agencies.
BCCL
Member
Never lose sight of the FACT, that if you speak to ATF (or any other LE Agency) without a lawyer present, then there will only be one accepted record of what you said....theirs.
Deanimator
Member
During or right after Waco, a BATF spokewoman went on a local Cleveland AM station and lied through her teeth about something that anybody could see was a lie just by picking up a current Time or Newsweek. It was THAT obvious.
Between that and their cute "how to lie under oath" official training video, I will NEVER believe ANYTHING they EVER say and would NEVER talk to them about ANYTHING without a lawyer present.
If you know somebody's not trustworthy, you're a fool to trust them.
Between that and their cute "how to lie under oath" official training video, I will NEVER believe ANYTHING they EVER say and would NEVER talk to them about ANYTHING without a lawyer present.
If you know somebody's not trustworthy, you're a fool to trust them.
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