ATF visited my dealer over multiple handgun purchases

[leadcounsel]

Gym: you are 100% entitled to your opinion, but with all due respect you are giving false and wildly dangerous and irresponsible advice that could have GRAVE consequences to the OP or others.

There are several REAL LAWYERS here that are giving REAL world good advice and you're running 'barracks lawyering' interference... which could result in prison sentences for people that 'go it alone' and make a novice or rookie mistake to save a buck.

As others said, you wouldn't fix your BMW yourself, you wouldn't do surgery on yourself, and you wouldn't try to fly an airplane without proper licensing and training. Why would you tackle a serious legal issue on your own...?:banghead::banghead:

 

[NavyLCDR]

There are several REAL LAWYERS (including myself, NAVYLT, and others)

IANAL!

you wouldn't try to fly an airplane without proper licensing and training

It WOULD be very tempting, though!

 

[gym]

I do fix my Mercedes myself when it's something simple like an air filter. And several of my friends are Lawyers, so don't get uppity with me. By the way I just bought a new home and doubled my money on the last one, the real estate crises was just to make a point. I think you like to push people around. Many lawyers do that as you know. Answering questions that are truthful and being honest may be something that you may not be used to dealing with. I have no interest in PM'ing you, nor do I bow to your so called legal expertise. I think that many Lawyers like to toot their own horns. "that's what they do when they are together", speak about how they stuck it to this guy or that one. There is no need to hire a lawyer if you didn't commit a crime. A simple yes or no answer is more likely to satisfy the agent's question, it may be as simple as a name spelled wrong , why would he need a lawyer before finding out the reason for the visit. It's 2 or 3 days since his post and he hasn't heard anything, So does he still need help from an attorney.

 

[Erik M]

It's 2 or 3 days since his post and he hasn't heard anything, So does he still need help from an attorney.

Makes me wonder if the FFL told a story just to get OP's blood pumping. . .I can see the guy at my local shop doing that.

 

[Montag]

Gym

Let me rephrase something I said. If they come to your door and want to talk, ask for a card and tell them your attorney will call them. Then hire an attorney.

Guess I just assumed no one would waste money on an attorney until they needed one. I am sure you know about assuming.

 

[gym]

That may well be true, some people do things like that just for their own amusment. If it were a serious problem, he would have been contacted by now. That's the point of not calling a Lawyer unless you need one. Federal cases are expensive, and I had this discussion with my Friend/Attorney. I said hey what happens if you take on a murder trial in Federal Court, and the guy runs out of cash, down the road. Like a big drug dealer. He said, you are stuck with the case, it's almost unheard of for the judge to "let you off the hook", so you take as big a retainer as possible. You don't ever know where this type of thing is going to lead. So the nonsense about the $500.00 just was the final straw. Lawyers get that much per hour.

 

[Skillet]

wow this has turned into 8 pages of rambling and shut up and get your attorney posts.

 

[duns]

You must shop at "lawyers are us", mine was a former prosecutor for the state of Florida, and he would not take a case with the words ATF and GUN in them without a 10 grand retainer. The lawyer is on the hook if the plaintiff cannot pay as the case escalates, he "the attorney" can't "walk away" in a Federal case. So he would be stuck defending a deadbeat for $500.00, in a case that could monopolize two years of his time until conclusion. A simple real estate foreclosure case prior to the now infamous real estate collapse, required a ten thousand dollar retainer here in South FL. No self respecting attorney is going to commit himself to doing battle with the ATF for five hundred dollars...

What you say sounds credible to me. Even my divorce lawyer required a $25,000 retainer before starting work on my case. I can't imagine a lawyer getting someone through a situation with the ATF for $500.

 

[duns]

There are several REAL LAWYERS here that are giving REAL world good advice and you're running 'barracks lawyering' interference... which could result in prison sentences for people that 'go it alone' and make a novice or rookie mistake to save a buck.

leadcounsel, with all due respect to you as a lawyer, you keep saying "get a lawyer" but I don't think it's necessary to get a lawyer whenever a government department asks a few questions. That seems to me to be paranoid or as others have suggested an indication of something to hide that will guarantee further probing. I do have real world experience of lawyers and sometimes they are useful and sometimes just a waste of money. If the ATF phoned me, I would probably ask how do I know you are the ATF, please write to me on your headed paper with your question. If they turned up at the door, I would ask for ID and then say it's not convenient right now, please write -- listing the questions you want to ask -- and I'll reply. If they say they need to ask me questions face-to-face, I would say that we can set up an appointment and would they mind writing to me listing the questions to be asked. Then, taking everything into consideration, I can make a judgment whether I need a lawyer with me at the meeting. I certainly think one would be prudent not to answer questions of the top of one's head without opportunity to think over the questions.

As others said, you wouldn't fix your BMW yourself, you wouldn't do surgery on yourself, and you wouldn't try to fly an airplane without proper licensing and training. Why would you tackle a serious legal issue on your own...?

What makes you say it's "a serious legal issue"? The ATF has not even contacted him.

If you have any specific knowledge of ATF inquiry procedures, it would be very helpful if you would post them.

 

[gym]

Here is another take on Lawyers. People are people, some are nice some aren't. Some are smart, some are not. When I "hire" someone, he works for me, I pay him. Just like I hire a Plumber or a Doctor. I don't let the employee tell me what I want. I tell him what I want him to do. If he cannot do that, I hire someone who can. Many hundreds of lawyers are on TV now like used car salesmen, "nothing against car salesmen" hawking their wares. These are desperate times, and a lawyer is never going to tell you, "you don't need me for this" don't waste the money. Just fill out the form and send it back, "that's all I am going to do". So never let someone you hired control what you wanted to to acomplish when you hired them. Legal advise is subjective, ten lawyers will tell you ten different stories.Usually none are correct in the end. So don't get pushed around by someone you are paying, remember it's your money, when it's gone, so are they. They love to scare you into thinking that if not for them you are in big trouble. Get 3 or 4 opinions, consultations are usually always free. Tell them I am interviewing attorneys, they will tell you to come in and explain what they feel they can do for you. If not, you don't want them. Would you hire a cook without tasting the food?

 

[Gunfighter123]

If I was you I'd expect either a phone call for you to meet ATF agents or a knock on the door from said agents.

If a phone call --- get a lawyer on retainer and give the agents his number then nicely end the call.

If a knock on the door --- step OUTSIDE and then tell said agents your lawyers phone number.

Fine , you broke no gun laws but what you say to them CAN AND WILL be used against you.

Do a search here in the Legal forum for much more information.

Quote above was posted by ME --- post #4 , on Page One of this threat at 7:27 , thats is TEN MINUTES after the the OP first posted it at 7:17 ----- TEN MINUTES .



Duns you stated

Even my divorce lawyer required a $25,000 retainer before starting work on my case. I can't imagine Even my divorce lawyer required a $25,000 retainer before starting work on my case. I can't imagine a lawyer getting someone through a situation with the ATF for $500..

NO ONE IS SAYING -- " a lawyer getting someone through a situation with the ATF for $500." If you are arrested and go to trail --- IT WILL COST MORE THEN $500 !!!!! AND YOU YOURSELF {very well worded } have said you would give the ATF NO INFORMATION if they phoned you or "out of the blue" knocked on your door !!!

That is a VERY WISE DECISION and let me ask you WHY NOT TALK TO THEM ???? You are smart enough to know THAT ANYTHING YOU SAY ,CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU !!!! I am glad to see WE AGREE ON THAT !!!!

I don't know what kind of lawyers you have or have worked with ---- with my lawyer I think it would go like this ;
Ring,Ring ---- Hello , its Gunfighter123 -- I'm calling because I MIGHT have a problem with a LE agency about some guns I bought and sold recently. Do you advise me to talk to them about it if they phone me or knock on my door ?? My Lawyer , I AM SURE ,would say it IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO !!!!! So , I should just REFERE THEM TO YOU ??? OK , I'll do that .
RING , RING, or KNOCK,KNOCK ---- Mr. Gunfighter123 ?? We are with the ATF and want to ask you some questions about A QUANTITY of firearms you bought recently.
"Oh , I'm sure my lawyer would either want to be here to represent me or would want more specific information before I answer any questions. At that time , I would be MORE THEN HAPPY to give any information , receipts , or written records that I have to clear this up. Here is his card and thanks for stopping by and have a good day.

Now , either the ATF will call my lawyer --- GOOD , I know whats going on then.
Or they will not call my lawyer --- they may " snoop" around all they like , they very well may put me on "another list" -- who cares ??? If I bought /sold the firearms Legally , what are they going to uncover ??? They will just "go away" and go hassle the next person "on their list" who has bought/sold multiple firearms recently !!!

What did it just cost me to protect my FREEDOM ?? One call to a lawyer I already have on retainer !!!! Oh wait you say " the ATF DID CALL your lawyer !! I SAY AGAIN -- good --- now I know what they want. At that time { not when ATF's at my door } I can think/decide what to do ----- phone them , meet them , bring a lawyer , not bring a lawyer , -----I HAVE TIME TO THINK !!!!


Gym --- we keep going around and around here.

A simple yes or no answer is more likely to satisfy the agent's question, it may be as simple as a name spelled wrong , why would he need a lawyer before finding out the reason for the visit. It's 2 or 3 days since his post and he hasn't heard anything, So does he still need help from an attorney.

We don't know !!! MAYBE he talked to the ATF without a lawyer and he is under arrest , thats why no posts/word from him !!! Maybe he still does need help from a Lawyer.

I had this discussion with my Friend/Attorney. I said hey what happens if you take on a murder trial in Federal Court, and the guy runs out of cash, down the road.

YES , IT WILL COST YOU , IF , a lawyer takes ANY CASE that goes to court. And that is IF THERE IS A CASE ---- there has been NO CHARGES FILED , so my lawyer has NOT AGREED to take the case. At this time , all thats happened is my Lawyer got a single phone call from me and MAYBE a call from the ATF.

You don't ever know where this type of thing is going to lead. So the nonsense about the $500.00 just was the final straw. Lawyers get that much per hour.

Final Straw ???? My Lawyer already has $500 of my money --- I called ONCE to ask if I should talk to ATF etc. ----- I don't think my Lawyer would even ask for a 10% fee for that advice , he knows that I knew what "advice" he'd give when I called !!! Now , if YOUR Lawyer would charge $500 , $5000 , or $50,000 for that 2 MINUTE CALL --- I can understand why you would not want to call them !!! Then I just quoted you "You don't ever know where this type of thing is going to lead " Those are your words --- and you don't want to have a Lawyer ????

Gym --- your post number 185 , that post MAKES SENSE ---- get a Lawyer you are comfortable with and know they are working TO PROTECT YOU.

In ending --- REREAD the first lines of this reply ------ a scared guy posts questions about firearms and the ATF. I post advice TEN MINUTES after he posts ----" be polite but Lawyer Up" ------- If the ATF talked to him 10-20 minutes after he read my post #4 ------ HE COULD NOT have been hurt by my advice and 186 posts later -- I STILL SAY IT WAS GOOD ADVICE.

I rest my case --- for now !!! LOL

 

[Bubba613]

Police/Government need probable cause or consent to search you and your property (generally speaking, there are exceptions such as emergencies, government locations, public safety, public policy, police safety, etc.). It makes their job easier and your defense harder if you give consent. If you refuse consent, then they need a warrant. Guess what they need to get a warrant from a judge: Probable Cause. That's a pretty difficult threshold to meet unless you have given them some reason to search, like for instance opening your pie-hole. ANY statement you make, which you think is helpful, will likely be grounds for a FULL search and seizure warrant. For instance:
ATF: We saw you recently bought several of the same handguns
You: Yes I did (wow I'm so helpful)
ATF: Do you have those handguns now?
You: Oh no, I sold several of them.
ATF: Can we take a look at your collection?
You: Either yes (consent) or no (they have already learned you sold them, and likely have enough information for a probable cause search warrant of your entire house). A lawyer, however, would know that you might not have to answer that question. Then the ATF would need to try to get a warrant without that information, and it would NOT be based on probable cause, and it may either be denied by the judge/magistrate OR anything found by a falsly sworn warrant could possibly be later suppressed in trial...

This scenario makes no sense to me. Probable cause of what? Owning guns? That isn't illegal. Buying the guns was not illegal. Selling them was not illegal. There is no probable cause here of anything and nothing that would suggest the need for a search warrant.
This is legal fear-mongering.

 

[Deanimator]

There is no probable cause here of anything and nothing that would suggest the need for a search warrant.

I've seen local police who don't know that open carry is lawful in Ohio.

The BATFE has a LONG track record of to put it mildly, "improper" behavior and violations of the law and individual civil rights. Whether they don't know the law or simply don't care about it, talking to them helps ME in absolutely NO way. It certainly endangers my interests in unacceptable ways.

Anybody who says I should "trust" them to do the right thing on their own without legal coercion, either doesn't know them or has an agenda.

I don't buy electronic gear out of the back of a total stranger's van and I don't talk to LEOs without a lawyer.

And as an aside, anybody who feels "invincible" enough to talk to LEOs without a lawyer present, you'd BETTER record that conversation where it's lawful to do so. Fortunately, Ohio is one of those places.

 

[Bubba613]

You're certainly free to act guilty in the face of mild inquiry by law enforcement. I just wouldn't recommend that to anyone interested in getting the encounter over and done with.
Positing that the ATF is now suddenly going to become, with the acquiescence of a magistrate, an out of control rogue intent on smashing the rights of law abiding individuals just doesn't pass the laugh test. I remember the hue and cry over the Cav Arms raid and how they were merely jack booted thugs out of control etc etc. Well, it didn't exactly turn out that way now, did it?
The advantage to answering the questions truthfully if not especially helpfully is that it gets you off their radar. That seems worth it enough to me.

 

[gym]

I PM'd the OP, and asked what if anything happened?, Let's see. Hey we come here to discuss stuff like this. That's a good thing

 

[Bubba613]

I PM'd the OP, and asked what if anything happened?, Let's see. Hey we come here to discuss stuff like this. That's a good thing

At the risk of being proven wrong, I predict absolutely nothing came of it. I think I wrote that in my first post on the topic.

 

[Deanimator]

You're certainly free to act guilty in the face of mild inquiry by law enforcement. I just wouldn't recommend that to anyone interested in getting the encounter over and done with.

"Act guilty" is code language for "doesn't do whatever an LEO WANTS, even if it's not required by law and is prejudicial to the subject's rights and interests".

No doubt, the Duke lacross team were "acting guilty" when they engaged counsel. Had they NOT, they doubtless would have been found "guilty" of something which NEVER HAPPENED.

I don't care HOW long they "investigate" me as long as they're obeying the law. I know I'll be. If they're not, bad things will happen to them. Of course without a lawyer, who'd know WHAT they were doing and whether it was proper?

But maybe that's the idea...

 

[TexasRifleman]

At the risk of being proven wrong, I predict absolutely nothing came of it. I think I wrote that in my first post on the topic.

I've been right there with you, and I don't think we are in any danger of being proven wrong.

This seems to play out where ATF visits the actual purchaser only in border states.

 

[c5_nc]

Nothing has came of it (as of yet). I didn't want to continuously bump the thread. I had heard of getting calls, etc. I had heard of visits (to the buyer) in border states being almost common now. My impression was that the ATF visit to FFL may have been more sever than a call/visit to me. It appears that is not the case. Not sure what the point of the visit was then, if they expected the FFL may be funnelling guns through my name it does not make since. Why not take 30 seconds to call me to see if I actually picked up the guns. They still would not know if I actually purchased them or not, dealer could have added three guns to my order of one gun. Why would the dealer even send the letter in, why would they even log them in the book? I still don't get that. If they call/visit I will not involve an attorney. I would have probably limited the questions I would answer. I had only purchased two guns previously from dealer, so maybe they didn't see a trend and don't care.

 

[goon]

On the occasions when I've spoken with people from the ATF they've been professional and relatively helpful.
You didn't break any laws by buying multiple handguns if you're buying them for your own legal uses and not for resale, so why worry about it?
I only own a few guns but I wheel and deal all the time. I have no idea how many have passed through my hands at this point. I've never been bothered by anyone, have no problem passing background checks, had a C&R license for awhile, etc.

Go shoot your guns and stop worrying.

 

[mcdonl]

Afraid to order multiples again now, and dealer will not allow... I was going to purchase more items, its cheaper to only travel to ffl one, and to only pay one combined shipping fee.

c5 no offense... you have what many of us would consider a wealth of money to spend on guns. If it were me (And boy do I wish it were!!) I would be more focused on what gun do I want, and where can I get the best one I can find.

If you are all about buying multiples of run of the mill guns you are going to continue to be scrutinized.

Enjoy your windfall and post pictures when you get them!!

 

[Bubba613]

My impression was that the ATF visit to FFL may have been more sever than a call/visit to me. It appears that is not the case. Not sure what the point of the visit was then, if they expected the FFL may be funnelling guns through my name it does not make since. Why not take 30 seconds to call me to see if I actually picked up the guns. They still would not know if I actually purchased them or not, dealer could have added three guns to my order of one gun. Why would the dealer even send the letter in, why would they even log them in the book?

Re-reading the OP it is unclear to me that your purchase specifically prompted the visit. ATF might just have been doing their routine inspection thing. During that they will review all multiple purchase reports as this is an area that dealers get into trouble with (including yours truly).
The dealer must log the gun in because the wholesaler will have a record of shipping the gun to him, so there is a paper trail.
As far as re-using 4473s to add extra guns, ATF just changed the form to where the dealer must record the number of guns on the form. That wouldn't make it impossible to cheat, just more obvious.
I would add, enjoy your purchases and contemplated purchases and forget the whole thing.

 

[nalioth]

Positing that the ATF is now suddenly going to become, with the acquiescence of a magistrate, an out of control rogue intent on smashing the rights of law abiding individuals just doesn't pass the laugh test.

I suggest you open your eyes.

Their history speaks for itself.

 

[Deanimator]

I suggest you open your eyes.

Their history speaks for itself.

Anybody who would knowingly "trust" an organization which produces an OFFICIAL training video on how to LIE UNDER OATH deserves whatever they do to him.

Anyone who would advise others to trust this organization, knowing their documented history, does so with malice aforethought.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'll just leave this here:

As part of training for ATF special agents and state and local task force officers, ATF purchased a number of Leatherman tool kits engraved with the words ‘ATF – Asset Forfeiture’ and ‘Always Think Forfeiture’ for distribution to the participants. These training aids were designed to increase awareness of the asset forfeiture concept so that persons who do not regularly employ the strategy as part of a criminal investigation might be reminded to consider it.

I prefer this line from writer Mark Frauenfelder:

How about inscribing Leathermans with the motto "Always Think Innocent Until Proven Guilty" so that ATF agents who do not regularly employ the strategy as part of a criminal investigation might be reminded to consider it?