bad paper work exprience with local gun shop

[mrdoublestak]

how confident do you guys gals feel about the people that do the paperwork at gun shops.

do you feel that they should have only certain trained people fill it out.

or should it be like a car dealer where the paper work gets the once over by the store sales manager before you finish up and walk out the door


i have purchased three AR 15 receivers at the same time the gun shop screwed up the paper work some how and all three law enforcement departments city PD state PD sheriffs dept all wanted my cpl number and wanted me to come down and register these receivers as pistols.

i told them i don't want to that if i did that i could not put a butstock on them and i would have to engrave registered pistol on the receiver the young lady wasn't very gun smart she didn't know anything.

but the super cop syndrome kicked in "you will do this you have no choice i am not asking you"!
so i went to the gun shop where i purchased them from and my friend works as the gun sales manager and he called the sheriffs dept that's also where i get my pistol purchase permits.

and they are the first people to see any paper work so i go to them first we re did the paperwork ect ect and for each receiver. now i thought this would clear up this whole thing.

I was wrong now all that did was stall the whole thing for a year 11 months later the city police came to my house and wanted to talk to me about the the pistols i purchased and i asked him to come in.
i showed him my gun safe in the corner of my living room asked if it was ok to show him what why and how they were not to be pistols.

one was complete and even the officer didn't under stand that a receiver was "the gun" he was like oh there just part's after they left i went to the gun shop.

my bud the gun manager was not there so i asked for one of the owners he came out and i explained what was going on. he knew what already had taken place and said he would have my friend call me at 9am and have all the receivers i built broke down to just complete lowers in case they wanna see them so i did.

now when we went to the sheriffs office the woman that does all the paper work asked how this got all screwed up and the guy that did the paper work thought because i purchased three it was to go on my cpl that's how he did
paper work so they were confused about the whole multi gun/ multi caliber thing.

so while at the sheriffs office window i asked her to type up a dept letterhead showing the issue was resolved to show any other dept in the future that comes knocking at the door!

i have learned that if my friend isn't there i don't take it home it gets put on lay away until hes there

 

[Davey Wavey]

Gave up after a couple paragraphs. Invest in periods please.

 

[stickhauler]

Thank the Lord I live in a civilized state that doesn't require purchase permits to buy firearms! What part of "shall not be infringed" don't they understand?

 

[forestdavegump]

They need to train better.

That who thing is horrible. They do need training at alot of places. (I will exclude the gunshops and large outfitter stores) That is the case at the bigger chain stores where the young people just feel it's just a dumb job and are not careful. The other times it's a pain is when they are way to over zealous, and act like know-it-alls. Here at the local big five stores they are the worst. I only buy from them when stuffs on sale. I always have to ask them to get the paper work so I can start filling it out.(they are so slow) They also won't let you look at a bolt action with the rifle and the bolt together, just plain stupid. They said it to dangerous and against store policy. LOL. They will however let me look at shotguns and semi autos(with the bolts in) they are much safer:banghead:

 

[Davey Wavey]

Thank the Lord I live in a civilized state that doesn't require purchase permits to buy firearms! What part of "shall not be infringed" don't they understand?

Apparently the "shall not be infringed" part.

 

[zoom6zoom]

You don't say what state you are in but;
=Bare receivers are marked as "other" on the 4473 form. They do not become a rifle or pistol until you actually build them.
=There is no Federal requirement to engrave an AR receiver as a pistol.

 

[sansone]

I have seen AR15 receivers built into pistols. If you live in a state that restricts handguns this garbage happens.. The current 4473 has a line allowing the dealer to post remarks.. I write: "receiver to be assembled as rifle" if the customer agrees.. the paperwork is too important to allow inexperienced employees to fill out

 

[Bubba613]

The only remarks I make in the remarks section are the customer's phone number, in case he was denied and I need to get hold of him later, and comments like "denied, what a shocker" when the customer is an obvious low-life. Once I got a "conditional proceed" and marked "ROFLMAO".
Yes, the issue seems to be state law more than employees. Anyone can make a mistake.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Glad you got it straighten out with out getting the parts taken by the police or your self locked up.

 

[armoredman]

4473s are like 1040s, we filled them out strictly per what was required and not one dot more. Of course, that was 10 years ago, maybe people do things differently now.
I agree, what a pain - sounds like Michigan. Move to Free AZ.

 

[ultradoc]

that was kind of hard to read without periods but i struggled through it i am glad that you finally got the issues resolved the popo can be ignant at times

 

[Sav .250]

Maybe somebody needs to check........the checker!

 

[Unistat]

MrDoubleStack, I'm going to assume you live in Michigan because that sounds like our pistol registration and the fact that we have "CPLs." This sounds like a pain in the neck for you, for sure. My advise is this: When buying long guns, keep your CPL in your wallet. It isn't needed, all it does is make the buying process go a little quicker.

For all the others, here is how buying a gun in Michigan works:

--If you want a long gun, go in the store and buy it. Pretend you are in Arizona. This is what you do for AR lowers that are going to be rifle length.

--If you want a pistol and have a carry permit, go in the store and buy what you want, then mail or drop off your pistol registration to the local PD. This is what you do for AR lowers that are going to be pistol length.

--If you want a pistol and don't have a CPL, you have to go to the PD and pick up a purchase permit, go to the gun store within 10 days, buy your pistol, then send the registration to the local PD. This is what you do for AR lowers that are going to be pistol length.

This all used to be much worse when we had to take the newly purchased pistol physically to the PD for a "saftey inspection."

The OP's problem came in when the store used his CPL as a shortcut to a phone call. Then the clerk assumed because the lowers were being bought with a CPL they were going to be made into pistols.

BTW, a "Michigan Pistol" is a gun that is rifle length to the Feds, but under Michigan law it is a pistol and has to be registered as such. You really only get into this with carbine length guns that have a folding stock and things like that.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

OK

As a dealer and a manufacture of AR type rifles/pistols

The AR-15 (OR Clone) receiver can be used as a rifle or a pistol yess, BUTTTTTTTTTT using it as a pistol requires that the original manufacture sold it as a pistol and it was logged off their books as a pistol.

You the end user cant just arbitrarily decide that your new bare receivers are going to be pistols.

A bare receiver will normally be logged off the books as a rifle receiver or at least if it is intended to become a pistol it will be noted as such.

Otherwise the ATF can if the gun is found with a short barrel (under 16") declare it a Short barreled rifle and then you have serious issues

The store you buy these from has no choice in how they sell these.
The only choice they have is to mark the 4473 as either rifle if assembled or as OTHER as in receiver only.

you can't take an AR receivr and bounce it back and forth between a rifle and a pistol simply by swapping parts around.

The decision is made by the original manufacture only as to the end use.

Any time we make an AR Pistol, the receiver is engraved before anodizing
PISTOL ONLY and this receiver is logged off our "BOUND BOOK" as PISTOL

The mistake of thinking that a BARE receiver is fair game for whatever you choose to make it has been made many times and this mistake can get into a federal offense arena if the gun was ever questioned.

The issue of your receivers should ahve never come up. The depts were remiss and onviously do not know what they are doing.

The 4473 must be checked off as to Hand gun, Long gun, Other and then the make, model , serial number and the caliber (usually engraved MULTI) is the item is sold as a bare receiver.

The rest of the 4473 is pretty simple, your info must be complete, the questions on the front page answered yes/no and the sinature and date on page two.

The dealer fills in the guns info, fills in the store name, address, FFL number and a few other little items.

The Nics or State police are called to run the background check, the approval number is written into the space provided and thats about it.

The dealer may add filing numbers at the top of the page to be able to locate the particular items in the BOUND BOOK at a later date should ATF or LE come calling.

The problem your are having is not the fault of the store, but that too many people that dont need to be involved dont know what they are doing.

In Oregon, the State Police do the checks, and are required by law to delete all transaction records within a fairly short time.

ATF on the other hand can come to call at any time if there is an issue with a gun having been used in a crime etc.

I am not really sure why your LE had so much of a problem, never seen anything like that.

Sounds to me like too much government.

Move to someplace where folks are free. Here if you want to buy a gun/guns, you go to the gun store, pick what you want, pay the cashier, do the paperwork and unless your background has issues, take the toys home within a few minutes Yessss rifles, shotguns and pistols all that quick.

You can even buy a Barrett 50 cal and take it home in a few minutes.

No permits, no other BS either

Goos luck and I hope you get this resolved.

Snowy

 

[Snowy Rivers]

OK

As a dealer and a manufacture of AR type rifles/pistols

The AR-15 (OR Clone) receiver can be used as a rifle or a pistol yess, BUTTTTTTTTTT using it as a pistol requires that the original manufacture sold it as a pistol and it was logged off their books as a pistol.

You the end user cant just arbitrarily decide that your new bare receivers are going to be pistols.

A bare receiver will normally be logged off the books as a rifle receiver or at least if it is intended to become a pistol it will be noted as such.

Otherwise the ATF can if the gun is found with a short barrel (under 16") declare it a Short barreled rifle and then you have serious issues

The store you buy these from has no choice in how they sell these.
The only choice they have is to mark the 4473 as either rifle if assembled or as OTHER as in receiver only.

you can't take an AR receivr and bounce it back and forth between a rifle and a pistol simply by swapping parts around.

The decision is made by the original manufacture only as to the end use.

Any time we make an AR Pistol, the receiver is engraved before anodizing
PISTOL ONLY and this receiver is logged off our "BOUND BOOK" as PISTOL

The mistake of thinking that a BARE receiver is fair game for whatever you choose to make it has been made many times and this mistake can get into a federal offense arena if the gun was ever questioned.

The issue of your receivers should ahve never come up. The depts were remiss and onviously do not know what they are doing.

The 4473 must be checked off as to Hand gun, Long gun, Other and then the make, model , serial number and the caliber (usually engraved MULTI) is the item is sold as a bare receiver.

The rest of the 4473 is pretty simple, your info must be complete, the questions on the front page answered yes/no and the sinature and date on page two.

The dealer fills in the guns info, fills in the store name, address, FFL number and a few other little items.

The Nics or State police are called to run the background check, the approval number is written into the space provided and thats about it.

The dealer may add filing numbers at the top of the page to be able to locate the particular items in the BOUND BOOK at a later date should ATF or LE come calling.

The problem your are having is not the fault of the store, but that too many people that dont need to be involved dont know what they are doing.

In Oregon, the State Police do the checks, and are required by law to delete all transaction records within a fairly short time.

ATF on the other hand can come to call at any time if there is an issue with a gun having been used in a crime etc.

I am not really sure why your LE had so much of a problem, never seen anything like that.

Sounds to me like too much government.

Move to someplace where folks are free. Here if you want to buy a gun/guns, you go to the gun store, pick what you want, pay the cashier, do the paperwork and unless your background has issues, take the toys home within a few minutes Yessss rifles, shotguns and pistols all that quick.

You can even buy a Barrett 50 cal and take it home in a few minutes.

No permits, no other BS either

Good luck and I hope you get this resolved.

Snowy

 

[mrdoublestak]

see i thought there was multiple ways to get a pistol AR either build one out of the rifle you own and tell the ATF and of course buy one as a pistol.

and yes i live in mid Michigan.

as far as i know it was the whole multi caliber thing i could hear them debating about it and the added three at a time.

that got him / them all messed up he had help and i didn't give him my cpl card he left it blank thats why all the dept's were calling me.

and i always have my buddy fill out my paper work hes the only one i deal with.

 

[Sam1911]

see i thought there was multiple ways to get a pistol AR either build one out of the rifle you own and tell the ATF and of course buy one as a pistol.

No. According to the BATFE, you MAY build a rifle from a pistol (or "other") but you may NOT build a pistol from a rifle.

The issue has to do with the wording of the National Firearms Act from back in 1934. One of the definitions of a "short barreled rifle" is a firearm "made from a rifle" that does not have a 16+ inch long barrel AND/OR is less than 26" in length, overall.

So, taking a pistol and making it into a rifle is fine. Taking that same gun (or any other shoulder-stocked, rifled arm) and making it into (even making it BACK into) a pistol would require that you first register the firearm as a Title II SBR.

This is a big problem with T/C Contenders and Mech Tech carbine kits. But can also be a problem with ARs.

Most shooters sort of understand that you should never have a barrel less than 16" on a rifled weapon with a shoulder stock -- but have no idea that the shoulder stock becomes a kind of 'phantom limb', following that rifle receiver and legally defining it even if the owner removes it later.