Ballistic gelatin test : 7.62x25mm JHPs

[tinygnat219]

I'd LOVE to see something modern even in SINGLE stack with this cartridge. I have examples of both pistols chambered for it (CZ-52, TT-33). and I would LOVE to have something modern in this cartridge for Concealed carry.

 

[fletcher]

Looking good. Doesn't seem like overpenetration would be an issue with the proper JHP for this caliber.

 

[Silvanus]

Now all we have to do is convince Hornady to make them!!

And a decent new handgun in the caliber. Glock comes to mind when I think about it. They have that pistol in so many calibers, why not one in 7.62x25?

 

[fletcher]

And a decent new handgun in the caliber. Glock comes to mind when I think about it. They have that pistol in so many calibers, why not one in 7.62x25?

Whichever manufacturer puts out a new handgun in this caliber will get my business very quickly.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have seen the Communist Chinese conversion of a 1911 captured from the Nationalist Chinese to .30 Mauser/Tokarev. The magazine well was cut out to take a magazine for the longer round and the front strap is paper thin.

You might do better with a Star. They actually made guns in .30 Mauser and a surplus Largo might have the same magazine dimensions. If so, all you need is a custom built barrel. The Internet Forum Interest seems to be greater than Real World Paying Customers for stuff like that, though.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

+1, Jim. One thing I wonder though, is whether or not the things that sets the 7.62x25mm apart from most other handgun calibers could be seized upon by a good marketing department?

IE - lots of people like high velocity handguns, which explains the popularity of the .357Mag/SIG and to some extent, the 9x19mm. It's generally accepted that the round is a good penetrator and as my gelatin tests hopefully show, decently performing when used with an expanding bullet.

 

[tinygnat219]

The Star Model A Might be a good candidate for this, as the 9MM Largo round has the following dimensions:
9MM Largo:
CASE: 9mm Largo
BULLET DIA: .355
NECK DIA: .379
BASE DIA: .390
RIM DIA: .392
CASE OAL: .911
CTG OAL: 1.32


7.62X25:
Neck diameter .330 in (8.38 mm)
Shoulder diameter .370 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter .380 in (9.65 mm)
Rim diameter .390 in (9.91 mm)
Rim thickness .052 in (1.32 mm)
Case length .97 in (24.64 mm)
Overall length 1.35 in (34.29 mm)

The base and rim diameters are fairly close as is the OAL of the cartridge. The question that REALLY needs to be answered is can the Star Model A effectively handle the increased pressure from the 7.62 Tokarev.

 

[the naked prophet]

How does the length compare to a 10mm? I still say a 10mm Glock is a good base for a conversion, if it'll fit. You may need a narrower mag, and will need a new barrel and slide face/extractor/ejector.

 

[Jim Watson]

7.62x25 is .12" longer than a 10mm. That is the challenge, I do not think anybody now makes a gun with magazine long enough.
Star did make .30 Mausers. If they used the same frame for Largo, that would be a cheap conversion if you could make or procure a barrel. Certainly it would hold Mauser ammo and probably Tokarev. Might not last with hot Czech loads.

The best source for an investor would be to approach Russia or one of the other East Bloc countries that still had Tokarev tooling. Engineer a proper thumb safety, not the silly gadgets applied to Communist surplus to gain import points, find the mold for the P38 style grips of the Tokagypt, apply a commercial finish, and you are in business. The mad scientist known as Clark is of the opinion that the Tokarev is actually more durable than the CZ in spite of the latters roller breech.

 

[JohnKSa]

The mad scientist known as Clark is of the opinion that the Tokarev is actually more durable than the CZ in spite of the latters roller breech.

I think that you've correctly stated his opinion, however his test results, in my opinion, would better be stated as: The Tokarev is actually STRONGER than the CZ in spite of the latter's roller breech.

I believe that he proved that the Tokarev would hold together with loads that would explode the CZ. That definitely means the Tok is stronger, but it's hard to say for sure that it means that the Tok is more durable.

My personal opinion is that the CZ will do better handling a steady diet of strong loads (as long as they're not so hot that they blow up the gun) due to the more robust locking mechanism.

 

[RyanM]

The problem with the CZ-52 was that he stated that the bottom of the chamber was one of the thinnest he'd ever seen. I think he said only the Kel-Tec P3AT is thinner.

 

[0007]

What about using a 1911 in .38Super? Isn't the .38S case about 23mm long? Ooops, my bad. That's still 2mm short.

 

[tinygnat219]

How about something in the FN 5.7 platform?
The OAL of the 5.7X28 cartridge is 1.5 inches, with the Tokarev round being slightly shorter at 1.35 inches. Could it fit in the FN 5.7 magazines? Maybe change the magazine follower so that it could. It shouldn't be too hard for the FN gang to actually make a .30 Caliber barrel, and then allow a slide conversion like the 1911s with a .22 LR conversion. Just swap out the slide, and use the same magazines.

Hmmmm...

 

[Jim Watson]

Bear in mind that the FN is blowback operated.
Not MY 7.62x25, thank you.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

@0007 - It looks like the COL of the .38 Super is 1.280", while the 7.62x25mm is 1.35". I imagine that the xNUMBER is less important than the cartridge overall length, at least in this case.

What about creating a 'new' 7.62x25mm cartridge, one with the bullet seating depth increased to make a cartridge of, oh, say 1.280" COL?

 

[R.W.Dale]

What about creating a 'new' 7.62x25mm cartridge, one with the bullet seating depth increased to make a cartridge of, oh, say 1.280" COL?

In that case just save yourself the trouble and go with 30 Luger 8/10'ths the performance and it'll fit in just about ANY handgun.

Or just do as I did and trade the Tokarev in and buy a Glock in .357

 

[Malodorousroadkill]

They do make a weird .223 version of the tok called the .22 Reed Express and does hit at the velocities of the 5.7x28 with a heavier bullet. It is a long round though, you might do better with the 9x25 dillon or a .357 sig necked down to .30? That would be interesting and short.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was an experimenter who proposed rebarreling a gun (.38 Super, maybe) to 7.62 and using hollowpoints and flatpoints seated deep enough to fit the magazine. Never heard from him about the results, though.

If I wanted extreme high velocity from a standard size automatic, I'd just load a 9x23 with some 80 - 90 grain .380 bullets. The Barnes XPB copper bullet ought to be tough enough do well. But I wouldn't get the sex appeal of the bottleneck cartridge.

 

[Deer Hunter]

The 9mm Dillon already hits 1800 fps with 100ish grain bullets, though.

 

[mavracer]

you guys want velocity!!!!!!
from doubletap's web sight Caliber : 9X25

Bullet : 90gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 2100fps / 881 ft. lbs. 6" Lone Wolf bbl

 

[SaMx]

just for academic purposes, can you test the wolf gold hollow point in gelatin?

 

[rdrancher]

+1 on a wolf gold hollow point test.

JE223 - How much will it cost?

rd

 

[seeker_two]

At one time, the major gunmakers (Beretta, SIG, Ruger, etc) made versions of their 9mm guns in .30 Luger/Mauser for sale in those countries that prohibited ownership of 9mm's....

Why not convert one of those? I'd go for a Beretta 92 in .30Tok....

 

[zinj]

At one time, the major gunmakers (Beretta, SIG, Ruger, etc) made versions of their 9mm guns in .30 Luger/Mauser for sale in those countries that prohibited ownership of 9mm's....

.30 Luger is a much different cartridge than .30 Mauser.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

just for academic purposes, can you test the wolf gold hollow point in gelatin?

+1 on a wolf gold hollow point test.

JE223 - How much will it cost?

rd

In order to test that cartridge in gelatin, I will need to borrow a 7.62x25mm gun to shoot. For 75USD, I will supply the ammunition and the gelatin block.