bayonet and light on tactical shotgun

[ArmedLiberal]

This has probably already been pointed out, but a bayonet will add length. Greater OAL when manuevering through a house is a disadvantage.

Pros for adding a bayonet for HD: looks cool (to some).

Cons: adds weight and length, dubious legality.

Lights are a more involved question. Yes, it's better to have lights in the area than use a weapon light for illumination, but there can be power outages/attacks and sundry other issues. Since I've actually taken the time to practice a little instead of just arguing about it online, I know I can use a weapon light to see if someone across a medium or larger room is holding a weapon without ever covering them with the muzzle.

I measure my bayonet as projecting 6 1/2" past the muzzle of my Mossberg. I just spent some time waving my shotgun around with and without the bayonet and I cannot perceive the difference in weight or balance. But then I have not had any tactical training either.

Before reading this thread I had not visualized using a tactical flashlight by pointing it and the shotgun at the ground in front of me to illuminate a room. Again the lack of training. This does seem like a reasonable way to use the light and still preserve gun safety. I'll have to think about that one.

In California at least there are no laws regarding bayonets. They have outlawed nunchuks, brass knuckles, shuriken and belt buckle knives but we can carry bayonets to our hearts content. We don't get many advantages in weapons laws here so we have to make the most of the ones we do have.

 

[BullfrogKen]

My point wasn't about ownership; it was about actually using it.


If you want a cool wall-hanger, or something to get out of the closet to impress your friends, go for it.


If you want something you're actually going to shoot and train with, something that can be used for home protection, something that's actually useful . . . spend that money on a good training class and some ammo.

 

[FruitCake]

When I bought my used wingmaster it came with the extended magazine for 2 extra shells and boy do I HATE the extra weight difference. I'm happy the seller sent me the original cap cause the extended mag came off quick. I can only imagine with a bayonet the unbalance of weight for me anyway. But some people like that kind of stuff so to each their own.nothing wrong with with a bayonet if its what you like but in my opinion its just extra weight that your not gonna use especially when theirs a trigger right next to your finger that you can pull that will cause an explosion and a bunch of little balls or one big piece of lead will come out to hurt whatever is threatning you.

 

[Girodin]

How about you Girodin? Do you have opinions about the correct tactical use of shotguns with flashlights attached? Do you too have a bayonet on your shotgun? What training do you have in the defensive use of shotguns (or firearms generally), lights, room clearing, etc?

I've done some training classes. I train(ed) a few SWAT guys in hand to hand stuff and they in turn train me in firearms. I'm fortunate enough to have a private range so I can do a lot of training and shooting and drills that one might not be able to at a public range. I had been a life long shooter and hunter before I started training in defense shooting. It was illuminating and I realized just how different it was and how much I had to learn.

Your sarcasm about the use of lights only further highlights that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Honestly, I suggest you spend the time and money to actually learn something about using your firearm.

 

[stanger04]

I see lights as a very important accessory to my firearms, I don't worry too much about my home being invaded because of the area I live in ( in the country know or am related to my neighbors ) but I do tend to think more about it when the power goes out.

To me I tend to think if something bad is going to happen it will be at the worst possible moment. I would have to point my gun at someone or thing to use my light but it my finger is not on the trigger what is the problem?

To have a light on a gun would actually help in a court case as a defendant would be able to say he/she took every precaution they could to identify and respond to an intruder. There would be no saying they took a shot in the dark at an unknown/unidentified person whom could have easily been a family member.

 

[ArmedLiberal]

I've done some training classes. I train(ed) a few SWAT guys in hand to hand stuff and they in turn train me in firearms. I'm fortunate enough to have a private range so I can do a lot of training and shooting and drills that one might not be able to at a public range. I had been a life long shooter and hunter before I started training in defense shooting. It was illuminating and I realized just how different it was and how much I had to learn.

Your sarcasm about the use of lights only further highlights that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Honestly, I suggest you spend the time and money to actually learn something about using your firearm.

I guess what I'm trying to express with my flashlight sarcasm is "Lighten Up Francis!"

I actually do have a clue what I'm talking about, I just come to different conclusions than you do. I suspect that it's actually you who doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about.

Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

If it pleases you to train and practice with great correctness and seriousness than by all means do so. What I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.

There are many thousands of hours of serious and correct tactical training that I will never know. I'm pretty OK with that. Shotguns with tactically mounted flashlights offend my sense of esthetics. Just don't look right. This is not an argument to convince you that your extensive tactical training is not correct, just a comment on what my style preference is.

If you and I are ever pitted against each other in a tactical training exercise I'll have all my friends bet on you. OK?

I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room. I am consciously choosing not to dedicate myself to preparing for that struggle. I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices. But then we all think our choices are better or we wouldn't choose that way. Right?

If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?

There are many, many ways for armed folk to use and enjoy their firearms. They are not all the same. We all find our own paths in life. I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.

Whadda ya say Girodin?

 

[Girodin]

hat I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.

Shoot however you like. If that's what makes you happy great but hold off on telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it since you have no training, no experience and no real clue.

Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

Not hardly. You are also painting with a broad brush. I imagine that people who train to become more proficient in the defense use of firearms are not a monolithic group. They probably differ a lot in why they do it and what they think. If anything I imagine they are in general more aware of how many things can go wrong. Many of them my self included do that type of shooting/training at least in part if not primarily because they find it enjoyable.

I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room.

What happened to "It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates . . . "? I guess that just doesn't apply to folks who don't intend for things to happen. I find it amusing you put both of the above quotations in the same post.

I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices.

Wow. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to being happy or interesting than whether one likes to learn how to use their gun well or whether on likes to only plink at pop bottles. Those are actually probably really far down the list of things that contribute to one being a happy and or interested person. I am a bit amused that anyone would assert that they are (or at a minimum believe that they are) more interesting than another person they have never met (and more interesting to who? There is no standard measure or unit of interesting). That one would base such an assertion on the fact that one shoots pop bottles in the desert makes it sound even more inane.

If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?

You're 100% wrong. Equating one being more prepared to deal with a bad situation to that person welcoming or desiring it in anyway is plain stupid. I wear a seat belt yet I do not wish for a car accident. I have fire insurance but I don't hope my home burns. I have food/water storage, still I do not hope for a shortage. I have money set aside in the bank and I certainly do not hope to lower my income or increase my bills.

I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.

Nothing I have said suggests anything different and your whole post is a poor attempt to distract from what actually was said. Lets recap it. You spouted off some silly remarks about using fighting shotguns and accessories. I asked the bases for your opinions. You admitted to having none and then went on a bunch of tangential rants about nothing of particular note or real relevance to anything that was said before. I honestly could careless what other people do with their firearms provided it is safe and legal. When someone wants to start opining, as you apparently love to do, then I think there is nothing wrong with inquiring into what informs their opinions.

If you want to use your guns to shoot pop cans by all means do that. What I suggest is you then you refrain from spouting off about things you admit to knowing nothing about. What do you say?

 

[ArmedLiberal]

I guess a good summary of what I'm saying is that I find folks who love tactical training and equipment more than anything else about guns often get a little too serious and would benefit from some lightness and humor.

I can't believe that you would dismiss my flying Pepsi cans as "plinking at pop bottles." Bottles are way more trouble to pick up after. Cans mostly hold together and using Diet Pepsi prevents the sticky mess that sugared Pepsi would bring.

Quote:hat I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.​

Shoot however you like. If that's what makes you happy great but hold off on telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it since you have no training, no experience and no real clue.

I never, ever suggested my preference for a bayonet on my shotgun as advice for the tactically inclined, or that a shotgun bayonet was of any value other than it's supreme coolness nor did I presume to instruct in it's proper use other than mere admiration.

Quote:Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.​

Not hardly. You are also painting with a broad brush. I imagine that people who train to become more proficient in the defense use of firearms are not a monolithic group. They probably differ a lot in why they do it and what they think. If anything I imagine they are in general more aware of how many things can go wrong. Many of them my self included do that type of shooting/training at least in part if not primarily because they find it enjoyable.

I can't argue with this. You do not sound like one of those who believes that their skill and training guarantee a good outcome.

Quote:I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room.​

What happened to "It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates . . . "? I guess that just doesn't apply to folks who don't intend for things to happen. I find it amusing you put both of the above quotations in the same post.

Boy, that sure pokes a hole in my rhetoric. Touche!

Quote:I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices.​

Wow. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to being happy or interesting than whether one likes to learn how to use their gun well or whether on likes to only plink at pop bottles. Those are actually probably really far down the list of things that contribute to one being a happy and or interested person.

I intended to accuse you of excessive seriousness and devotion to tactical training. No one enjoys the company of the excessively serious one. I may have been mistaken about you. Although there does seem to be a certain lack of humor or wit to your arguments.

Quote:If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?​

You're 100% wrong. Equating one being more prepared to deal with a bad situation to that person welcoming or desiring it in anyway is plain stupid. I wear a seat belt yet I do not wish for a car accident. I have fire insurance but I don't hope my home burns. I have food/water storage, still I do not hope for a shortage. I have money set aside in the bank and I certainly do not hope to lower my income or increase my bills.

Very well put. I wish that this was my argument, I agree completely.

Quote:
I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.​

Nothing I have said suggests anything different and your whole post is a poor attempt to distract from what actually was said. Lets recap it. You spouted off some silly remarks about using fighting shotguns and accessories. You might have missed the marked lack of seriousness of my remarks. Do you really think that someone searching for serious tactical information would be in danger of mistakenly taking my posts as a serious source? So you think that making a statement like "Bayonets are cool and I like one on my shotgun" is telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it? You admitted to having none and then went on a bunch of tangential rants about nothing of particular note or real relevance to anything that was said before. I honestly could careless what other people do with their firearms provided it is safe and legal.If you honestly could care less what other people do with their firearms , why are you so exercised about my shotgun bayonet? When someone wants to start opining, as you apparently love to do, then I think there is nothing wrong with inquiring into what informs their opinions. Indeed, that is so. I trust I have completely explained the foundation of my opinions.

If you want to use your guns to shoot pop cans by all means do that. What I suggest is you then you refrain from spouting off about things you admit to knowing nothing about. What do you say?

I say that I never presented tactical training information. My "spouting off" was expressing my delight with my shotgun bayonet.

Also, you presume to hold the one standard for what using a gun well means. Perhaps not all the world shares your gun use values.

 

[Sam1911]

Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

This is a frustratingly common sentiment. It is flawed on several levels:

1) Folks who train and practice are generally not under the delusion that they will "inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way." Rather, training and practice tend to show up starkly all the deficiencies in a person's skill-set. Shows them what can and WILL go wrong or fail. Shows them how slow and inefficient their own movements are under even simulated stress -- and how easy it is to miss "even with a shotgun" when pushing past the limits of your skills.

2) The statement is also is flawed in its fatalistic conclusion -- that life is just too random for preparation to have any benefit. The fractured belief that, since emergency situations are not entirely controllable, there is no value in practicing and preparing to handle similar crisis moments. Taken to its extremes, "Why bother to be faster and more accurate with my home-defense gun? While the bad guy and I are trading shots, a meteor will probably hit the house and kill us both anyway!"

People who face risks (well) train and practice. Pilots do it, EMTs do it, soldiers do it, race drivers do it, sailors do it, firefighters do it, etc. Not one of them is under any kind of pretense that their simulations and dry runs are going to exactly emulate the next real emergency they will face. But they establish the habits and techniques that work most often under most conditions, test their equipment and make sure they understand how it works and how it fails, and they develop the fall-back plans that could support them when the first (second, etc.) plan doesn't work.

When the dire threat to life and limb does come, they know there will be some aspect of it that will not be like the practice run. Some element(s) will overcome, break, or evade their trained responses -- and they will have to answer that new twist with ingenuity, creativity, confidence and strength under pressure, flexibility, and perhaps a big dose of "luck." But their practice has allowed them to narrow that uncontrollable element down. The ENTIRE situation isn't unfamilar ground. They aren't caught "flat-footed" at square one.

I've watched people run unfamiliar guns through "self-defense" scenarios. (We do this as an official match once a year at my club -- set our participants up to run various scenarios with guns they've never seen before.) I've also helped many hundreds of shooters run defensive scenarios and shoot houses with equipment they DO own and SHOULD know well, and seen them be utterly flummoxed when it didn't do what they expected. Training and practice help eliminate your equipment, your setting, and your own skill-set from the list of the "unknowns" that could get you killed.

 

[Sam1911]

As others have said, the OP's question was pretty specific and has been answered.

There are some really pertinent questions on the utility of such items that might make for a very informative S&T discussion.

Arguing whether a bayonet on a shotgun is cool -vs.- practical isn't likely to end well, and folks get a bit hot under the collar when told to "Lighten up, Francis."

As the OP hasn't returned to the forum in five days, I'll call this done.