BBC Anti-American Bias in Finland School Shooting Report

[macFarlaine]

We still have those people in abundance.Yes my father has gone but he was a big game hunter in India,I have a lovely tiger on my gun room floor.Our family and others still carry on those traditions and values. I am afraid there was never enough of us to to make a difference,hence why we are on your sites.

 

[iapetus]

Actually no, the cost is based partially on income payed through the National Insurance contribution

0% for the first £100 per week
11% on income up to £670 per week
1% on any income above £670 per week

ALL your social cover comes out of the National Insurance payments which covers

Is that actually the case, though?

I'm pretty sure that was how it was supposed to be, but in reality, doesn't NI just go into the same pot that all the other taxes do, out of which all expenditure comes? Can you say for sure that the cost of the NHS is simply the NI you pay?


I would add, though, that it is my understanding that the average American's health insurance is substantially more (twice, I think I once heard) the average British contribution to the NHS.

 

[hopkin]

Originally Posted by iapetus
I'm pretty sure that was how it was supposed to be, but in reality, doesn't NI just go into the same pot that all the other taxes do, out of which all expenditure comes?

The money gets ringfenced so the amount set aside for the NHS doesn't get spent on Benefits. It's a strict division and the budget set by the treasury is given over to different departments who can't borrow from each other.

Even among different benefits money is ringfenced. A certain amount is budgeted for Disability Living Allowance and can't be used for anything else. DLA is always under-claimed and money goes back to the treasury each year. No idea where it goes after that.

 

[everallm]

To answer Hopkin,

The issue in the USA isn't just absolute versus indirect costs for health care. The real issue here in the US is that health care is a huge profit driven industry with it's own ideas of what is "shareholder value".

This is unfortunately exacerbated by State and Federal government lobbyist driven law.

For example, in the UK and most of Europe, the national health service, or equivalent, is required to get the best price possible for consumables such as prescriptions etc.

Medicare and Medicaid are prohibited from attempting to leverage their buying power in the market so these costs are far higher in the US than elsewhere.

This is added to by prescription costs via your medical cover. There are approved bands for varying types of pills and potions and you will pay the price, ($5, $10, $25, $50 etc) that your health care provider decides. It has only been in recent years that at the state level that the individual has had laws passed that allowed them to be informed and chose if a cheaper generic was available.

And if you have a "pre-existing condition" or no cover.....SOL my son.

 

[sterling180]

"The Professionals"? I'll look that up. I don't think I've seen it, but I always liked Jackson's acting.

Oh,you'll definately love it and If you've seen CI5:The New Professionals,then this one is more of a British version.Mentioned the SAS and had CQB battle training,before the Iranian Embassy Seige,in 1980.Also features an early appearence of the Steyr Aug and the MP5,which were hard to get weapons,of that time-for tv.It should be on dvd in America,so check out Amazon.

 

[Danus ex]

The real issue here in the US is that health care is a huge profit driven industry with it's own ideas of what is "shareholder value".

Not so fast--let's go deeper. As a university grad with a new job in corporate America (no benefits for my generation!), I've recently spent a fair bit of time pricing and investigating health insurance companies. The top three health insurance providers in my state (Blue Cross Blue Shield of MN--some states' BCBS are for-profit, Medica, HealthPartners) are taxable non-profit organizations with no shareholder equity. For-profit providers like CIGNA cost about the same. The "corporate greed" boogeyman isn't really present at the provider level.

However, you could argue that said boogeyman has a home in pharmaceuticals and a condo in medical devices. I work for a medical device company, and our profits are staggeringly high on some items--enough to cover the huge losses on other items, failed projects, and lawsuit settlements. If we mitigate those problems effectively, we'll have a good quarter.

 

[Hacker15E]

Finest free health service,free to all.

Please tell me that this was intended as a joke.

Unlike the other posters here who have chosen to question the "free" aspect of this statement, I have a beef with the "finest" portion of the statement.

I am a Yank stationed in the UK with the military, and recently my wife and son were in an accident in which they ended up in an NHS hospital. My wife had surgery for internal bleeding and my son had a broken bone.

The treatment we recieved there was NOT REMOTELY what I would consider 'finest'. I would call it 'adequate' at best compared to the privatized health care I've been raised with.

The nursing staff was outstanding...I've never seen better, to be quite honest. What killed me was the 'recipe' method of health care which appears to proscribe particular methodology and drugs for each ailment, but does not allow deviations outside of that treatment regimen. This resulted in my son being allowed to scream in pain for hours on end when the muscle relaxant he was given did not work, and they either had no alternative drug available or failed to seek any alternatives.

What is even more interesting is the bill given to the USAF for the services. I'm not surprised that the UK needed to bill the US for the treatment -- we're not taxpayers, and as such don't have any right to access the NHS for free. No, interesting was the outrageous prices for the treatments my family recieved! People complain about the inflated prices that the US system generates...well, let me assure you that it's in the UK system, too, in full force. My son's skin traction for 4 days was approximately $50,000.

So, UK people, you need to realize that your health care, although 'free', is not the same standard of treatment that US citizens have access to, for all its problems.

 

[macFarlaine]

I am sorry to hear about your sons painfull experience.This sounds like an isolated incident to me.We can look at the elderly American tourist who had a mild heart attack outside the Houses of Parliment last week.
As a New Yorker he Said "if this would have been at home I would of died on the street,nobody would have come to my aid" he had glowing comments for the ambulance staff,nurses,doctors, and NHS.As far as costs are concerned,I cannot comment,but we do hear of bills for UK tourists running into millions for treatment in the US.I for one and many others are advised when travelling to the USA to take travel insurance that will cover you up to 20 million,yes 20 MILLION.....

 

[macFarlaine]

Further to your point:I have just checked what are the figures for non Europeans been charged for NHS treatment.75% of non Europeans are not charged for NHS treatment,I think your case is different because the American military has an agreement with the UK government to pay for any treatment,this is claimed back via insurance companies.
We have a growing No of NHS tourists from all over the world even the US who come to the UK to have free treatment.I think we are a pretty fair and caring society,and always ask how can we help you before we say can you pay or proove you can pay before treatment.
I hope your son is recovering well .

 

[mr hanky]

Hey George,just a few things us Brits still lead the world in:
Still make the finest sporting shotguns.
Finest free health service,free to all.
Exported David Beckham and spouse to the USA.
Stick by our friends (including USA)in times of crisis.
Still play rugby which is the tougher version of your football (without the body armour).
I could go on for hours but I must do some work.Take care George,no hard feelings.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukoneineight.html

Umm, I would really challenge the argument about the free and "finest" health care in the world as well...The above link describes how one in eight patients in the UK are waiting over a year for treatment like surgery.

I've read a few things about this (I'm looking for my references, I put just one that I can remember), while cheaper health care services like meds might be easier to swing in a nationalized health care system, cancer patients, and other people needing surgery for any other life threatening reason are dying a lot more frequently than private health care.

It boils down to whether or not you trust the government with something as precious as your life and health, I don't. More government control over guns (so this whole rant is still semi gun related), healthcare etc. is not the solution.

 

[macFarlaine]

We have lost the battle on gun control in the UK,yes I freely admit that,but we are a democracy and people vote in members of Parliment and they vote on issues like gun control.That's my on topic bit,off topic please Mr Moderator.Yes pople do have to wait in some cases none emergency.Absolute rubbish about people dying more on the NHS rather than through private,we pride ourselves on offering free health care to all,even if you are not from Europe.We Brits are very proud of our caring attitude,you can always find fault with anything if you are prepared to dig deep enough,we try and work on the more positive sides of our Country and the services it provides to all.

 

[mr hanky]

I am not challenging the goodness of the Brit's character. I am challenging the idea that greater government involvement in something like health care is a good idea, its not, just as it is with regulating firearms. I don't have the time to research any figures at the moment, but before you say its absolute rubbish just think about the concept of greater gov involvement in health care or firearms control.

Don't take my comments as attacking the people from the UK, fault finding, or anything similar, its something I have great concern over - and I do not want the US adopting Europe's style of health care - which is why I am talking about it (not just fault finding). Just think about why you would want greater government involvement in things like firearms or health care (both can protect your life).

This is a link from a UK web site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jun/08/health.politics

-describing the "rubbish" you and I are talking about. This is what gives me a sense of aversion when people from UK start touting their "finest and free" health care system.

 

[mr hanky]

macFarlaine,

I am also not opposed to working on the positive sides of your own or my own country (even if its healthcare that is free to all) I just disagree with the notion all together. We all should work on something that is truly "positive" but not "socialistic" like nationalized health care, national ID cards etc...

 

[macFarlaine]

Ok Mr Hanky,point taken.Here is a positive.My brother rang me from Iraq last night,he had had a good week,only one patrol,he wasn't shot at and the weather is alot cooler now.He met with some American Marines and they had a good time together,words were (we had a good laugh).The UK is not perfect by any means,we have lost our rights concerning gun ownership,our free Health Service is not perfect and we open our borders to all and sundry.
We cannot compete against the US in the vast majority of things,you have bigger cars,more guns,possibly more freedom,we do give you a hard time on occassions,but we always stand by you when the chips are down.
We are not that different you know ! my original post was more tongue in cheek than fact,but as always it tends to bring out a negative attitude from both sides of the pond.
I have great respect for your country and it's people,along with the vast majority of the UK population,maybe we should just agree to disagree from time to time and not let it get to personel.

 

[mr hanky]

Agreed macfarlaine,

I too am glad that your country stands by us in conflict, I have utmost respect for yourself and your country as well and I agree we are not that different. The bigger cars and guns line made me laugh...

It is a lot more productive to argue the issue than to let it get personal (if I gave that impression I apologize).

I hope we can go shooting some time if I chance to be accross the pond or vice a versa.

Take care!

Chase

 

[macFarlaine]

You will always be welcome in the UK Chase,along with your country men and women.Reersonal I was not referring to you..
Regards John.

 

[trueblue1776]

In the CS Monitor from fri the 16th there's an article on 'Once Great Britain' searches for a national motto. One of the contributors suggested "Americans who missed the boat".

That's pretty funny.

 

[macFarlaine]

Hey,I have just read that article,good fun.My favourite is "May contain nuts".
Here's a question for you,what is the view of Christian Scientists on guns and hunting.

 

[trueblue1776]

I have no idea what their religious or moral views are specifically, but they do print one hell of a newspaper. I appreciate how they can print personal stories without taking a political position.

 

[macFarlaine]

Yes,I agree great read with no bias...

 

[Fosbery]

Well this has got a bit off topic. When did supposedly free healthcare have anything to do with guns, shooting or self-defence? I guess having the state provide your healthcare is only a step away from expecting it to protect you, but I don't think that's why we're talking about it.

 

[macFarlaine]

Yes,we realise we are off topic,just having a natter,no harm done.You obviously thought it was worth reading ?

 

[AndyC]

In the CS Monitor from fri the 16th there's an article on 'Once Great Britain' searches for a national motto. One of the contributors suggested "Americans who missed the boat".