Be careful out there.

[BBQLS1]

This goes to show how important it is to be aware of your surroundings and be wary of others. If it doesn't seem right, it probably isn't.

http://theadvocate.com/home/2565893-125/robbery-suspects-arrested

At least they caught these cold blooded ........

 

[Fred Fuller]

From the link...

snip/
About 4:30 a.m., after the robbers injured Deloach and took his wallet outside his house in the 5200 block of Bluewater Drive, the affidavit states, they ran around the corner to the 5400 block of Springwater Drive, a dead-end street, where a 52-year-old mechanic was leaving his house to go to work.

The mechanic, Doug Devorde, had noticed an unfamiliar white Chevy Impala parked across the street, as well as signs his truck had been broken into — a light was left on, and the passenger seat was moved.

He called out to the two men as they approached the Impala: “Hey, what are you doing in this neighborhood at this time of the morning?”

The men froze. Devorde walked down his driveway toward the men, repeating his question, until he was about 15 feet away from them.

Suddenly both men withdrew semi-automatic pistols and pointed them at Devorde.

“Back down,” said the man on the driver’s side of the Impala. “Back down.”

“You want me to cap him?” asked the man on the passenger side. “You want me to shoot him?”

As Devorde retreated toward his house, his 27-year-old son opened the front door to leave for work. Devorde yelled for him to call the police.

Suddenly, both men fired their guns, Devorde said. He and his son ducked to escape the spray of bullets.

As the men sped off in the Impala, they fired six to eight more rounds at Devorde’s house, shattering a kitchen window and striking chairs in his living room.

Sheriff’s deputies recovered two .45-caliber and three 9mm bullet casings from the scene, the affidavit states.

“Thank goodness they were bad shots,” Devorde said.
/snip
===================================

“Hey, what are you doing in this neighborhood at this time of the morning?”

Talk about asking a question you're not prepared to have answered... and then getting closer to the out-of-place strangers in order to reiterate the question to boot. This sounds like pure "monkey dance" at work to me (see https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/social-violence-the-monkey-dance/ if the term is unfamiliar to you).

We MUST understand what we're seeing when we see it, and be willing to admit to ourselves that what we're looking at really is there, staring us in the face. We MUST get beyond the ritualized stupidity of the monkey dance, especially those of us who go armed. And we MUST be able to tell the difference in social violence and predatory violence, and react appropriately to each.

This isn't just an issue of training. This is an issue of MINDSET, and establishing a proper mindset is critical. Ignoring clues like strange vehicles, unknown/unfamiliar individuals, obvious signs of B&E on your vehicle, etc. are not what we can afford to be doing.

The first O in OODA is for OBSERVE...

 

[Liberty1776]

that's an excellent comment - the monkey dance. Never heard of it before but I sure know what it is. And I'm glad I'm so old no one even thinks of doin' the monkey dance with me anymore...

 

[JAshley73]

Ok Fred, let me pose this question to you; What should the man, standing in his driveway, watching these two get in an unfamiliar vehicle have done? Freeze like a deer in the headlights- (Do nothing?) Turn around and run- (Retreat?) Walk down the driveway and ask "what are you all doing here? while putting his hand on his pistol while pointing his SureFire on the perps- (Prepare to engage?)

If self preservation is the goal, then obviously Kicking' Rocks is the best plan of action in response. But IF this guy really believed something fishy (big IF) was going down, then what burden lies on the individual? Any at all? Witness? None at all? Crime stopper? (I'm prepared for you to tell me, that burden lies on LEO's, and I think I agree with you...)

Perhaps a more simple question would be; What burden is placed on the private citizen (armed or unarmed) when acknowledging and/or witnessing a violent or suspicious act playing out. Flee, Witness, or Engage? (Probably not engage I'm guessing...)

(Perhaps i'm forgetting something I should have picked up on by now here in the S,T&T section.)

 

[beatledog7]

We've all seen this "monkey dance" ritual play out, and thankfully it usually escalates no further than a little pushing and shoving before cooler heads break it up. In this instance, there were no coolers heads present. Mr. Devorde's decision to approach and confront was, at best, high risk. I'd call it foolish.

If a car load of unknowns is in my driveway, my first move is to look after my own safety (I live alone). That means rechecking my doors, dousing lights, and laying low with my favorite SD implement while I make a 911 call. If they attempt to enter my house, then the scenario changes to SD, and that's a different matter altogether.

In this scenario, it may be that these guys have already committed crimes on a neighbor's property or person, but there is no burden on me or you as private citizens to confront these might-be perps. Being a good neighbor / concerned citizen stops short of getting myself shot.

 

[Al Thompson]

I'm not Fred, but I'll take a swing.

Devorde walked down his driveway toward the men, repeating his question, until he was about 15 feet away from them.

I'm pretty sure I would not have left the cover of my vehicle to get closer to suspicious characters. Obviously, ambient lighting would be a major factor, but I'd want to get a good look at the guys and the license plate of the car. That being said, we don't really know how long his driveway is, but it appears that most are some distance from the street.

http://maps.google.com/?q=5400 block of Springwater Drive

Also depends on where his vehicle was parked.

IMHO, distance is your friend. Confrontation puts you right into what Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch fame calls "the hole", or where proximity deletes skill. I might get close enough to read the tags, but I certainly wouldn't get closer.

 

[mcdonl]

Perhaps a more simple question would be; What burden is placed on the private citizen (armed or unarmed) when acknowledging and/or witnessing a violent or suspicious act playing out. Flee, Witness, or Engage? (Probably not engage I'm guessing...)

(Perhaps i'm forgetting something I should have picked up on by now here in the S,T&T section.)

A strange car was parked on his street and indication his truck was broken into. Worth writing the tag down. Certainly merits an escalation of your threat level but engaging...? I don't think so. At this point, you think these men may already have a reason to fight to preserve their freedom and avoid being caught. We know criminals have a high sense of self preservation. There are two of them, one of you... Lots of reasons that alertness and your cell phone are you best tools to use in this situation.

 

[paramedic70002]

They thought he was a neighborhood watch captain and they were about to be "Trayvoned." They acted in their mind (counter to the law of course) in self defense.

 

[Fred Fuller]

What should the man, standing in his driveway, watching these two get in an unfamiliar vehicle have done?

As if I knew . As if I could say... after all, I wasn't there, and I'm no guru of All Things Tactical either.

But I can tell you this. What he did is certainly not what I would have done in similar circumstances, or at least I would like to think so at any rate.

“Hey, what are you doing in this neighborhood at this time of the morning?”

Does that question in any way remind you of another question apparently asked by one George Zimmerman not too long ago? It does me. And look how well that turned out. This one didn't go too well either, obviously.

I tend to be a worst-case sort of thinker, and if I walked out of the house one morning to find a strange car, a couple of strangers and apparent signs of B&E of my truck, challenging them myself is not what I'd be likely to do. Two on one is fun for basketball, but for a potential fight, not so much. I carry a cell phone pretty reliably, but if I happened not to have it on me in that situation I'd be about facing and heading for the landline in the house, prepared to impart as much useful information as I could to the 9-1-1 dispatcher.

Our vehicles are always parked inside a fence with all gates padlocked, but gates can be climbed. There are sensors along the road leading in here and on the driveway, so any foot or vehicle traffic arriving by road is announced before it arrives. There's always a remote possibility that someone could be inside the fence despite the hotwire that tops it- the gates aren't 'wired.' But it's hard to get a door open here without three dogs boiling out of it first, and our little pack is highly territorial. It would be difficult for me to find myself in that exact sort of situation here, but not impossible. And if I did walk out the door with my head ... in the clouds ... only to find the situation as described above in my front yard, my probable reaction would be to head right back inside, to get hands on a shotgun and a phone in the off chance the strangers in the yard were looking for more than "stuff" to steal.

I'm not looking to get into a fight over "stuff." I pay for insurance to take care of "stuff." But life and limb for me and my wife are not the same as "stuff."

 

[Ringolevio]

Fred Fuller wrote:

What should the man, standing in his driveway, watching these two get in an unfamiliar vehicle have done?

As if I knew. As if I could say... after all, I wasn't there, and I'm no guru of All Things Tactical either.
[snip]

I'm not looking to get into a fight over "stuff." I pay for insurance to take care of "stuff." But life and limb for me and my wife are not the same as "stuff."

Here's the bottom line, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm surprised that so many don't seem to grasp it, and that even Fred comes to it almost as an afterthought:

You don't engage over mere property crime.
Rather, you observe, you advise the authorities, you even document if possible (all the while being prepared to defend yourself, your home and your family), but you do not confront or engage unless someone is being physically attacked or threatened.

Otherwise, you stay out of it, even if it means letting the suspects escape with their loot. If you've properly done your part, their escape will be short-lived.

 

[JAshley73]

I just want to go on record as saying wasn't, and am not trying to play devil's advocate here, just trying to probe into discussion. Lot's of good comments and responses here guys. I must admit when I was typing my questions above, that I was 'connecting the dot's' so to speak between this gentleman and the Martin/Zimmerman case. (I do not intend to turn this thread into another Martin/Zimmerman thread, so I'm going to end it there...)

Most excellent points about not engaging a threat over property - I completely agree. But from the description of the incident between the gentleman in his driveway and the two suspects, it sounds like the geography could be similar to my neighborhood as well. So naturally I'm connecting the dots between this incident, and my own neighborhood.

Fred, I like how you went on to describe your different layers of protection as well. It sounds like the folks in the story weren't prepared in that regard...