gbran
Member
On my AK trips, guides had leverguns or shotties with slugs.
Bear defense rifle
- Thread starter skippy1729
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While I rarely get into big bear country, I ofter habituate black bear territory. That said, I decided that the Guide Gun was the way to go. It can be loaded mild to wild depending on the area. Folks have used it to take Elephants, hippos, rhinos, etc with the proper ammo. Loaded down it makes a dandy deer gun.
But, I know that one can't aways have a rifle in ones hands. So a large caliber handgun is a desireable addition. I prefer a short barreled .45 Colt Blackhawk. I know that even with the stoutest loads it isn't anywhere near as effective as a rifle, but a choice between teeth and finger nails and my Blackhawk, I'll take the Blackhawk.
But, I know that one can't aways have a rifle in ones hands. So a large caliber handgun is a desireable addition. I prefer a short barreled .45 Colt Blackhawk. I know that even with the stoutest loads it isn't anywhere near as effective as a rifle, but a choice between teeth and finger nails and my Blackhawk, I'll take the Blackhawk.
I have a modern Winchester 1886, in 45-70, with a Burris Fastfire II mounted I would not be afraid to use on bears.
You didn't say if you reload or not? If you reload a CZ550FS Carbine in 9.3x62 will do the job nicely. The 9.3x62 can take anything that roams the U.S. The 286grain Nosler (or your favorite makers bullets) will play hell on the charging bear, griz or hog. The 9.3x62 is a favorite caliber, for dangerous game, in both Africa and Asia.
It all boils down to you......... What action do you favor? What calibers are available to you in that action? What are you comfortable with? And what caliber are you able to get good groups with?
Good Luck on your choice.......
You didn't say if you reload or not? If you reload a CZ550FS Carbine in 9.3x62 will do the job nicely. The 9.3x62 can take anything that roams the U.S. The 286grain Nosler (or your favorite makers bullets) will play hell on the charging bear, griz or hog. The 9.3x62 is a favorite caliber, for dangerous game, in both Africa and Asia.
It all boils down to you......... What action do you favor? What calibers are available to you in that action? What are you comfortable with? And what caliber are you able to get good groups with?
Good Luck on your choice.......
LeontheProfessional
Member
You are, IMO, way better off going with a lever-action or a shotgun over and AR. I have taken an AR hunting many times and it is no where near as convenient as a more traditional type setup. The problem with the AR is that it has a pistol grip, a large exterior magazine, a mag well, high rise sites, etc. All these accessories and things sticking out all over the place make the rifle start to get rather cumbersome while on long hikes. Constantly getting poked and having to untangle it in the thick brush begins to become rather annoying.
With something like a lever action or a shotgun you basically have a stick in your hand that fires rounds. If you decide to sling it over your shoulder or back you can almost forget that it is there. There really isn't much hanging off it to get snagged and what not. If you do decide to go the route of an AR you are more likely to leave it behind when you just don't want the extra weight and bulkiness. Just my $.02 YMMV
With something like a lever action or a shotgun you basically have a stick in your hand that fires rounds. If you decide to sling it over your shoulder or back you can almost forget that it is there. There really isn't much hanging off it to get snagged and what not. If you do decide to go the route of an AR you are more likely to leave it behind when you just don't want the extra weight and bulkiness. Just my $.02 YMMV
tahoe2
Member
375 winchester
My personal choice, but I reload; I have a Marlin 20" barreled carbine in .375 Win
that launches a 200grn jacketd flat point @ 2400 fps or 220grn jacketed flat point @ 2200fps or a 265cast @2000 fps. This thing hits like a bus on steroids.
Bears, pigs, deer, elk, your choice @ 200yds or less. Or my .41 mag, I actually bought both of these for Bear!!!
My personal choice, but I reload; I have a Marlin 20" barreled carbine in .375 Win
that launches a 200grn jacketd flat point @ 2400 fps or 220grn jacketed flat point @ 2200fps or a 265cast @2000 fps. This thing hits like a bus on steroids.
Bears, pigs, deer, elk, your choice @ 200yds or less. Or my .41 mag, I actually bought both of these for Bear!!!
I will stand with you on the .375 Win. put a .458 SOCOM to shame..........
Just because you never saw a bear in your lifetime doesn't mean the bears are being released in places where they are not native...black and brown bears used to live all over this continent until the numbers were taken WAY down by white settlers.
I never saw a Stellar Sea Cow while growing up in Alaska either. Doesn't mean they weren't native to the area.
TwoEyedJack
Member
I went on an unguided fishing trip to the interior of Kodiak Island about 7-8 years ago. I took an 870 with an 18.5" barrel with rifle sights. It was loaded with #6 in the chamber, then 4 slugs. I had an close-range unplanned encounter with a very large male grizzly that fortunately ended with no shots fired and the bear backing down and leaving. I was very glad I brought a long gun instead of a handgun. After that we set up the electric perimeter and slept poorly.
788Ham
Member
tahoe2,
Glad to see somebody else likes that round! I've got a Win. Big Bore that I reload for, I really like the .200 gr. bullets for it, it really means it when it goes BOOM! I do have some 225 grainers, IIRC, Speers?, anyway, the .200's shoot good enough for me, no serious bear problems here. I wouldn't be afraid to use this on any black bear I've seen, plenty bad medicine.
Glad to see somebody else likes that round! I've got a Win. Big Bore that I reload for, I really like the .200 gr. bullets for it, it really means it when it goes BOOM! I do have some 225 grainers, IIRC, Speers?, anyway, the .200's shoot good enough for me, no serious bear problems here. I wouldn't be afraid to use this on any black bear I've seen, plenty bad medicine.
Just defence??? A pump shotgun stuffed with 3" Brenneke Black Magic slugs, one of the best bear medicine around and tremendously cost effective......a $200 Mossberg or Remington 870 is better for the task than many other choices costing much more....
Other very good choices, a Marlin 45-70 (loaded with serious high pressure rounds), a pump action Remington 760 or 7600 in 30-06 (with heavy for caliber premium bullets).
I would not go the automatic route (consider the harshness of the environment) or the bolt action route unless you are very very good with it (with a bolt action I mean).
Other very good choices, a Marlin 45-70 (loaded with serious high pressure rounds), a pump action Remington 760 or 7600 in 30-06 (with heavy for caliber premium bullets).
I would not go the automatic route (consider the harshness of the environment) or the bolt action route unless you are very very good with it (with a bolt action I mean).
In addition to a rifle or shotgun, I'd want a stainless S&W DA, .44 mag, 4-5" barrel with hard-cast semi-wadcutters or other tough bullets. The S&W Guide model is probably excellent, but if blued, would want a protective coating. It would probably be carried in a cross-draw holster and be worn whenever pants were.
I don't have much faith in a handgun as a stopper, so would shoot magnum rounds Double Action to get off as many shots as possible before having to use the gun as a club to hit the bear's nose, eyes and teeth.
I don't have much faith in a handgun as a stopper, so would shoot magnum rounds Double Action to get off as many shots as possible before having to use the gun as a club to hit the bear's nose, eyes and teeth.
KodiakBeer
member
I've been tracking bear attacks in Alaska for a few years, as some of you will know from previous threads. They appear to come in waves following bad winters. When you have a bad winter it kills the roots of many of the berry bushes, which take a few years to regenerate. Bad winters also freeze stream beds and so destroying the salmon eggs, which means 2 to 4 years later you have poor salmon returns.
In the mid/late 90's we had a series of bad winters in my part of Alaska which resulted in a sort of climax of bear attacks in 98/99/2000. Both the berry crops and the salmon runs were poor. Bears don't usually kill people for food (though sometimes they do...), but when you have stressed bears they are much more aggressive than in normal times.
Even in the course of a "normal" year you're much more likely to have problems in Spring or late Fall when bears are always hungry. Biologists have coined the term hyperphagia for the late fall behavior of bears - they become very aggressive trying to get every calorie they can before denning season. This period coincides with many November deer and elk hunts across the country.
In the mid/late 90's we had a series of bad winters in my part of Alaska which resulted in a sort of climax of bear attacks in 98/99/2000. Both the berry crops and the salmon runs were poor. Bears don't usually kill people for food (though sometimes they do...), but when you have stressed bears they are much more aggressive than in normal times.
Even in the course of a "normal" year you're much more likely to have problems in Spring or late Fall when bears are always hungry. Biologists have coined the term hyperphagia for the late fall behavior of bears - they become very aggressive trying to get every calorie they can before denning season. This period coincides with many November deer and elk hunts across the country.
Inebriated
Member
.45-70 or 12 Gauge and some Brenneke Slugs.
12 Gauge would get my vote.
12 Gauge would get my vote.
mustang 22
Member
I don't hunt bears, ever. But I do spend a lot of time where there are large numbers of them and see them frequently. If I could not find my 870?? then I would go with my 45 70 1886... I always know where my 870 is.
caribou
Member
I live here in Alaska with Polar, Brown and Black Bears, and Polar Bears dont hibernate.
My M-39 keeps me comforted at night
Its been the Death of many a Bear, and Kills the Bear what might kill me....
Been 4 years since a kid used his .243 and one shot to knock off a nice 9 foot Polar bear just outside the village here, but that dont mean we dont have them roaming out there tonight.
For Bear protection, guys here use what they carry , usually their high powerd rifle of sorts, or a shotgun with slugs, but then again, I cant remember the last local that was mauled around here and the last local killed was in the 50's......nope Arctic Bears like Long Pig from down south, especcially if they sneak through willows along rivers and keep a messy camp, cook in their tents and such.. The death last I rememeber was a Lawer from NY eaten on the Noatak river while his buddie watched, both unarmed.
They tracked that Brown down and killed it ...........Though most think it was a sympathy kill for the excruciating digestive problems that Bear was suffering......
My M-39 keeps me comforted at night
Its been the Death of many a Bear, and Kills the Bear what might kill me....Been 4 years since a kid used his .243 and one shot to knock off a nice 9 foot Polar bear just outside the village here, but that dont mean we dont have them roaming out there tonight.
For Bear protection, guys here use what they carry , usually their high powerd rifle of sorts, or a shotgun with slugs, but then again, I cant remember the last local that was mauled around here and the last local killed was in the 50's......nope Arctic Bears like Long Pig from down south, especcially if they sneak through willows along rivers and keep a messy camp, cook in their tents and such.. The death last I rememeber was a Lawer from NY eaten on the Noatak river while his buddie watched, both unarmed.
They tracked that Brown down and killed it ...........Though most think it was a sympathy kill for the excruciating digestive problems that Bear was suffering......
skippy1729
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- Sep 3, 2008
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- 37
Thanks for all the replies to my OP; many points that I had not considered. A few follow up questions:
1. For the Marlin 1895 (or any lever-action) can dirt or sand getting in the ejection port affect reliability?
2. Since the last grizzly in my neighborhood was shot about 50 years ago, a medium bore (375 H&H Mag or 350 Remington Mag) would probable be adequate for large black bear or unfriendly hogs. A long barrel is not needed for accuracy at close range but too short will turn it into a big flame-thrower. What is the shortest practical barrel length for these calibers, 16 in, 18 in, 20 in?
3. If I go with a bolt action will a "short action" give a better chance for a followup shot? What would be good "short action" calibers?
4. A CRF (controlled round feed) has been mentioned for a bolt-action. Could someone explain the advantage and how to tell if a particular rifle uses it?
Thanks again, Skippy
1. For the Marlin 1895 (or any lever-action) can dirt or sand getting in the ejection port affect reliability?
2. Since the last grizzly in my neighborhood was shot about 50 years ago, a medium bore (375 H&H Mag or 350 Remington Mag) would probable be adequate for large black bear or unfriendly hogs. A long barrel is not needed for accuracy at close range but too short will turn it into a big flame-thrower. What is the shortest practical barrel length for these calibers, 16 in, 18 in, 20 in?
3. If I go with a bolt action will a "short action" give a better chance for a followup shot? What would be good "short action" calibers?
4. A CRF (controlled round feed) has been mentioned for a bolt-action. Could someone explain the advantage and how to tell if a particular rifle uses it?
Thanks again, Skippy
KodiakBeer
member
.375 and .350 are very different cartridges.
The .350 Rem Mag was designed for short barrels - the old Model 600 with 18 or 20 inch barrel lengths. In fact, the Model 600 was designed specifically for Alaska bear guides. Remington solicited input from a bunch of guides and cooked up the short action Model 600. These rifles are almost iconic among bear guides where I live.
The .350 is a pretty fair intermediate range rifle and is plenty accurate for any kind of hunting inside of 250 yards. It doesn't turn into a flame-thrower with its shortened barrel. Remington had a run of Model 7 (short action) in .350 a few years ago and you can probably find one if you look around. If you can find an old Model 600, you'll be even more fortunate.
With that said, for black bears you really don't need a .350. A .308 would serve just as well.
Here is my Remington Custom Shop Model 7:
The .350 Rem Mag was designed for short barrels - the old Model 600 with 18 or 20 inch barrel lengths. In fact, the Model 600 was designed specifically for Alaska bear guides. Remington solicited input from a bunch of guides and cooked up the short action Model 600. These rifles are almost iconic among bear guides where I live.
The .350 is a pretty fair intermediate range rifle and is plenty accurate for any kind of hunting inside of 250 yards. It doesn't turn into a flame-thrower with its shortened barrel. Remington had a run of Model 7 (short action) in .350 a few years ago and you can probably find one if you look around. If you can find an old Model 600, you'll be even more fortunate.
With that said, for black bears you really don't need a .350. A .308 would serve just as well.
Here is my Remington Custom Shop Model 7:
skippy1729
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2008
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- 37
.375 and .350 are very different cartridges.
The .350 Rem Mag was designed for short barrels - the old Model 600 with 18 or 20 inch barrel lengths. In fact, the Model 600 was designed specifically for Alaska bear guides. Remington solicited input from a bunch of guides and cooked up the short action Model 600. These rifles are almost iconic among bear guides where I live.
The .350 is a pretty fair intermediate range rifle and is plenty accurate for any kind of hunting inside of 250 yards. It doesn't turn into a flame-thrower with its shortened barrel. Remington had a run of Model 7 (short action) in .350 a few years ago and you can probably find one if you look around. If you can find an old Model 600, you'll be even more fortunate.
With that said, for black bears you really don't need a .350. A .308 would serve just as well.
Here is my Remington Custom Shop Model 7:
The Remington Custom site still lists your model in 350 RM with a 20 inch barrel: http://www.remingtoncustom.com/HunterGrade_7CustomMS.aspx
Maybe they can still be ordered. I'll call a dealer tomorrow.
They call the iron sights "hooded blade front sight, and adjustable ramp rear sight". Have you ever used these? Do you think it would be possible to change these to "ghost ring" without a gunsmith?
Do you use factory ammo or reload?
Skippy
KodiakBeer
member
I have a 1x5 scope with quick detach mounts, so for close range I just keep it a 1x. The reticle is a big post type, so it's pretty quick to get on target. I did zero the iron sights for 25 yards, so if the scope gets broken I still have sights.
The concept of a ghost ring is a rear ring close to the eye. If you had it out on the barrel ahead of the action I don't think it would have any advantage over traditional iron sights. If you mounted it on the bridge, you'd have to give up your scope mount. I'm not sure either idea would be worth it on a bolt rifle.
The concept of a ghost ring is a rear ring close to the eye. If you had it out on the barrel ahead of the action I don't think it would have any advantage over traditional iron sights. If you mounted it on the bridge, you'd have to give up your scope mount. I'm not sure either idea would be worth it on a bolt rifle.
JustinJ
Member
Statistically bear spray has been found to be more effective than firearms. Yeah, if you're in hurricane force winds don't spray into the wind but the stuff is under a lot of pressure.
And whoever said they are more worried about being attacked by a wolf in the lower 48, there hasn't been a wolf attack in a loooooooong time, if ever.
And whoever said they are more worried about being attacked by a wolf in the lower 48, there hasn't been a wolf attack in a loooooooong time, if ever.
KodiakBeer
member
Oh, I forgot to add that I reload for .350. I also have a bunch of 200 grain factory loads around someplace. You can still get 200 or 250 grain factory ammo.
KodiakBeer
member
Yeah, about ten months...
http://www.adn.com/2011/12/06/2205617/dna-samples-confirm-wolves-killed.html
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