Belgian Bicycle Gun - Black Powder (EDIT well no, not black powder) 22 Centerfire

[BBBBill]

A good (high temp) silver solder joint will tear the adjacent metal before the joint fails. If you cannot move it by heating and bending the firing pin or by shimming the hammer to one side (probably not enough room for that) then redoing it is probably the only fix. I would check/measure/verify/put on paper what you have now and cobble up some sort of jig to hold thing in correct alignment while soldering to ensure correct orientation of the firing pin.

 

[Johnm1]

or by shimming the hammer to one side (probably not enough room for that)

Is there side to side play of the hammer on its pivot pin? Perhaps thin shims could be put on the hammer pivot pin on one side or both to align it to strike more in the center of the firing pin hole?

Although there is no movement from side to side, there appears to be room on the right hand side for the hammer to move to the right. Just a little, but we're not looking for much. I'll stare at it this evening when I get home from work.

If you cannot move it by heating and bending the firing pin o

Is there a possibility that I can apply heat to the firing pin without melting the silver solder from the original repair? The crack that was repaired is located at the base of the firing pin.

Here is a picture of the original repair at the base of the firing pin

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

If your strikes on the primers are set over to 10 or 11 o clock of center, it’s possible that shimming the hammer to sit farther right could help to correct the issue. Even if you find that it just brings your hammer nose strikes to the 12 o clock position, you would at least then be on the correct horizontal alignment and it would just be a matter of bending the hammer nose down just a little to hit center. This is also assuming the frame bushing or hole has enough clearance for the hammer nose to have it’s striking point altered.

 

[Johnm1]

Nice Velo-Dog! I've has a couple of these. The cartridge originated late enough that it is a smokeless powder cartridge, and did indeed use jacketed bullets but these are unobtanium today.

Not that I doubted MTP but I wanted to find confirmation that the original cartridge/firearm was designed for smokeless powder. From an original 1894 advertisement for Galand:



The highlighted portion translates into "powder without smoke". Aside from that I found an older post, by me, where I had found that this firearm had not only the Lion over PV Nitro Proof but also the Crown over PV Superior nitro proof mark.

So now the question is if I continue on with my plan to load this with black powder or develop a smokeless powder load. At this point I have a lot of different powders, but I have no Trail Boss or similar powder. Also the plan to load with lead instead of the originally loaded jacked bullets.

My gut tells me to load black powder with lead bullets just due to its age. Remember, this firearm needs to shoot a projectile. It doesn't have to perform at any particular level beyond that.

 

[.38 Special]

Is there a possibility that I can apply heat to the firing pin without melting the silver solder from the original repair? The crack that was repaired is located at the base of the firing pin.

I doubt it. Even silver brazing rod will begin to soften at a temperature which shows little to no color change in steel. Getting one small bit red hot while leaving the adjacent bit below 800 F is pretty unlikely, in my experience.

I'm curious about the way the firing pin attaches to the hammer face. Does it appear to be integral with the hammer, i.e. machined as one piece? Is it a separate piece, attached with weld/braze/??? Or is there some kind of mechanical interface between it and the hammer? I ask because if it is a heat-resistant attachment, the task is easier - the worst outcome is that the filler metal in the crack would just need to be replaced, which really isn't much of a trick. If the firing pin falls off when it gets heated up, though, you're into a different game - especially if trying to do the job without removing the hammer from the gun!

<edit> After thinking on it a bit more, it seems most likely that the initial repair job is what caused the issue in the first place. Rather than continue to half-ass it, I would resign myself to learning how to tear down the gun (and reassemble it!) and then fix the hammer properly. If gunsmiths are not common in your neighborhood (and you are not comfortable teaching yourself silver brazing, which is not terribly difficult) you might actually try the local jeweler. They tend to be surprisingly competent at this sort of work.

 

[Johnm1]

Does it appear to be integral with the hammer, i.e. machined as one piece?

It appears that the firing pin is integral to the hammer.

I would resign myself to learning how to tear down the gun (and reassemble it!) and then fix the hammer properly.

I suspect that I will eventually take it apart. I just need to look at it more before I do.

I have managed to silver solder one piece but it took 8 tries to do it.

 

[Gordon]

 

[.38 Special]

I have managed to silver solder one piece but it took 8 tries to do it.

Hell, that puts you ahead of most of us. I've been doing it for twenty years and still haven't really figured it out.

 

[Johnm1]

We're going to see what this thing will do tomorrow.



All smokeless powder and all lead bullets pulled from factory cartridges. Left: 40 grain from Blazer Round Nose steel case, powder is 0.20 grains less than what was in the Blazer case. Middle: 29 grain pulled from CCI shorts, 1.3 grains Unique. Right: 36 grain pulled from Winchester Plated Hollow Points, 1.3 grains of Unique. That is every case I own except for the dummy rounds i put together.

 

[Johnm1]

To keep this thread black powder related, I'll do some 22 shorts tomorrow as well.

 

[SC45-70]

Hell, that puts you ahead of most of us. I've been doing it for twenty years and still haven't really figured it out.

When silver soldering, the metal must be clean (the bluing must be removed). You have to use the proper flux. Heat the metal to the point that it melts the solder.
SC45-70

 

[Johnm1]

When silver soldering, the metal must be clean (the bluing must be removed). You have to use the proper flux. Heat the metal to the point that it melts the solder.
SC45-70

Would you mind giving us materials and sources for silver soldering? I'd like to practice as it apparently is a skill I need to master. So far I've tried what I can get at Ace hardware and the solder is always dry in the tube. And I'm not sure it is the best/right solder for these types of applications.

 

[Jim Watson]

Brownells sells several sorts of solder, including high temperature silver solder, and they probably have literature and video instruction.

 

[Johnm1]

Brownells sells several sorts of solder, including high temperature silver solder, and they probably have literature and video instruction.

I will go there. Thanks.

 

[SC45-70]

Would you mind giving us materials and sources for silver soldering? I'd like to practice as it apparently is a skill I need to master. So far I've tried what I can get at Ace hardware and the solder is always dry in the tube. And I'm not sure it is the best/right solder for these types of applications.

For a hi temp solder I use Harris Safety Silv 45 and Aircosil flux. This is what I would use to fix that hammer.
You will need an ox-acetylene torch with a small brazing tip as this solder melts at about 1370 degrees F (an ox-LP torch will also work).
The small Lp or Mapp gas torches usually do not get hot enough for 45% silver solder.
I get this solder and flux at a local welding shop.
Flux the metal before heating. Sometimes it helps to flux the hot metal also.
It also helps to dip the tip of the solder in the flux before touching the solder to the hot metal.
Practice on some scrap and you will soon get "the feel" of using high temp silver solder.
SC5-70

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Kool thread, here's mine, looks like yours but is the 320 caliber...

Still don't know what it is but have a blast firing 320 blanks...I have found brass and lead for it just haven't developed a load...yet

 

[Johnm1]

Kool thread, here's mine, looks like yours but is the 320 caliber...
View attachment 1048663
Still don't know what it is but have a blast firing 320 blanks...I have found brass and lead for it just haven't developed a load...yet

That looks incredibly like mine. The hammer is a different contour but the frame appears exactly the same. Safety, the cut out for the trigger and even the butt of the frame.

FYI - it is this flared (flaired?) Butt frame that has me the most concerned about disassembling the firearm. The best way I have found to replace a leaf mainspring is to push down with a socket type screwdriver, without a bit, but it needs to ride very close to the frame in order to be able to put enough force on the mainspring to reseat it.

I'll ask expecting the answer to be no, but have you ever had it apart?

 

[Johnm1]

You will need an ox-acetylene torch with a small brazing tip as this solder melts at about 1370 degrees F (an ox-LP torch will also work).
The small Lp or Mapp gas torches usually do not get hot enough for 45% silver solder.

I have an Ox-Mapp gas torch. Would that be appropriate?

 

[SC45-70]

I have an Ox-Mapp gas torch. Would that be appropriate?

If it's the one with 2 tanks (1 oxygen and 1 mapp) it will. I had one of those, other than the fact that the tanks didn't last very long, it worked fine for most small (gun) stuff. Most of the time I use an ox-LP torch.
SC45-70

 

[Johnm1]

the tanks didn't last very long,

Yeah, it is expensive also. But it's small and thats why I use it.

 

[Johnm1]

I reviewed the proof marks on the Velodog last night and I think I originally mistook the Nitro proof on the cylinder for a Superior nitro proof. As I read the tables for Belgian proof marks the superior nitro proof was only used on shotguns.

Despite being in a desert, it has been raining most of the week so the firearm and its ammo sit ready and waiting. I'll be loading up some black powder 32 and 38 S&W this morning to shoot in my top brakes that are mostly black powder guns. I managed to load a few black powder 22 shorts yesterday but that takes time. Each round is an operation onto itself.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

I'll ask expecting the answer to be no, but have you ever had it apart?

I have not, it works good and timing is good too, I am missing the ejector parts but that doesn't bother me much.

 

[Johnm1]

Well I won’t ask you to disassemble it for me, but I’d appreciate a close up photo of the mainspring. It would only require taking off the grips.

I’m not sure that all of these were made with an ejector mechanism. The ejector parts wouldn’t be hard to fabricate. They are bent sheet metal. Is there a screw hole on the front of the frame for the ejector to mount on/in?

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Well I won’t ask you to disassemble it for me, but I’d appreciate a close up photo of the mainspring. It would only require taking off the grips.

I’m not sure that all of these were made with an ejector mechanism. The ejector parts wouldn’t be hard to fabricate. They are bent sheet metal. Is there a screw hole on the front of the frame for the ejector to mount on/in?

Yes there is a screw hole, I will take some pics when I get home

 

[Miguel Loco]

"I have not, it works good and timing is good too, I am missing the ejector parts but that doesn't bother me much."


You're in good company with the missing ejector pieces...... Doc Holliday removed the ejector on his 77 Lightning to better facilitate front pocket carry. (no, Doc never used a shoulder rig).....