Belgian Bicycle Gun - Black Powder (EDIT well no, not black powder) 22 Centerfire

[Johnm1]

"I have not, it works good and timing is good too, I am missing the ejector parts but that doesn't bother me much."


You're in good company with the missing ejector pieces...... Doc Holliday removed the ejector on his 77 Lightning to better facilitate front pocket carry. (no, Doc never used a shoulder rig).....

For authenticity having the ejector would be nice. But it is ‘fidely’ at best. I just push out with a small rod.

 

[Johnm1]

I wanted to make the day at the range shooting the Velodog worth while, so I loaded some yesterday and today. All except the Velodog are loaded with black powder. Left top to bottom 32 S&W: H&R Premier, Iver Johnson Safty Hammerless, S&W Lemon Saueezer, Middle 38 S&W: Hopkins & Allen Forehand Model 1901, S&W 38 Double Action, Right 22 Short Black Powder: H&A XL No 1 NY, H&A Ranger, H&A XL No 1, Bottom right: Velodog.

In reality the 32's are all probably rated for smokeless with the possible exception of the IJ. All I had for 32 bullets were 85 grain XTP JHP's. That just didn't seem right so I loaded some mouse fart loads with some 0.310" balls I had that didn't work in either of my 31 cap and ball revolvers. I dont expect they will work any better in the 0.312" bore. But they will go bang. 4.6 grains of 3F under a wad under EDIT .310 round ball. 50 rounds loaded.

I had bought a box of 38 S&W smokeless with the intent of replacing the smokeless with black. What I didn't count on was the moly coated bullets without a lube groove. I had some 36 caliber wonder seals that I used above 10 grains of 3F and reseated the 0.358" bullets. I was a little disappointed that the bullets weren't 0.360" but well see how well they shoot. If they shoot OK I'll just continue to use the more common 357 bullets. 50 round loaded.

22 short loading is an operation. I spent the day yesterday making a crimping tool that works just OK. I have to make sure the case will fit and if not I can squeeze the case down with the tool. 40 or so. They are a pain to load.



It never works well when I bring this many firearms to am range session. But we'll see how well it goes.

I have 60 cartridges loaded for the Dog. All smokeless. And even though Black Powder would be more conservative, I can use pulled bullets from common 22 LR cartridges. I still have the jacketed bullets I pulled from the 22 CCM rounds and may experiment with them yet.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

close up photo of the mainspring.

Here are the only markings on mine other than the 41 on all the parts

 

[4v50 Gary]

I would have considered making a new hammer but with one modification - a slot for a separate firing pin so the pin can be replaced.

 

[gobsauce]

I would have considered making a new hammer but with one modification - a slot for a separate firing pin so the pin can be replaced.

You mean like revolver hammers before the frame mounted firing pin? Like a 70's era Smith' K frame?

 

[Johnm1]

View attachment 1049190 View attachment 1049191 View attachment 1049192 View attachment 1049193 View attachment 1049194 View attachment 1049195

Here are the only markings on mine other than the 41 on all the parts
View attachment 1049198

Oh my, I didn't expect you to remove it. That was above and beyond. Thank you. But being you did, how difficult was it to remove and more importantly, how hard was it to reinstall. Were there any tricks to the reinstallation?

It does look like mine. Apparently there were some that used a 2 part mainspring that also acted as the trigger return spring. I suspect that if you remove the cylinder you have a trigger return spring that looks like this





In the second picture you can barely see the separation between the trigger and the trigger return spring. The spring looks to be a flat piece of metal but it is actually a very strong V spring. In order to install the V spring you have to compress the spring and push it towards the trigger and underneath the trigger.

Here is a picture of the trigger return spring that looks like a flat piece of metal in the first 2 pictures. And you have to compress that spring until it is almost flat and then push it under the trigger.



Again, thank you for removing your spring for these pictures.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Learn somethin new everyday...mine doesn't have that spring, but looks like its supposed to be there... I always thought you had to manually recock the trigger ... which seems to work fine lol...now I have more parts to find...


I always hold trigger forward in firing position with something then slight pressure on mainspring to just pull it out the side...might be a better way but thats my way....

 

[Johnm1]

now I have more parts to find..

The spring will ne 0.550" long and 0.25" wide. I cant measure the unsprung height without taking it out. I also cant measure how thick it is. It looks like I'll be disassembling this one very soon. I'll pass on my dimensions as soon as I do.

I always hold trigger forward in firing position with something then slight pressure on mainspring to just pull it out

I won't have any trouble holding the trigger forward. How was it going back in? These springs tend to be very stiff. Did you use needle nose pliers? Edit - if I'd have looked at your picture closer I would have seen the pliers.

 

[Johnm1]

Here are some basic dimensions for the extractor. It appears it could be hand machined (oxymoron I know) from 1/4" to 1/2" material.

 

[Johnm1]

It never works well when I bring this many firearms to am range session. But we'll see how well it goes.

The answer to that question was 'not so good'. My primary goal was to see reliable ignition on the velodog and that wasn't achieved. I was able to get 10 consecutive ignitions in my function test at the house but was only able to get 1 out of the first 7 shots. Something 'moved'. I suspect that @Jackrabbit1957 `s suggestion may be correct and there may be an issue with the hammer pivot. Now that @Paul R Zartman has given me confidence that the mainspring can be removed/reinstalled fairly easily I can check that.

Short summary of the other firearms was:

32 shorts all went fine. That mouse fart load was neat.

38 shorts both had issues. Thd S&W 38 Double Action bound when I loaded a full cylinder. Turns out there was caked on 100 year old crud on the face of the recoil shield that blocked the path of the case heads. Found it later at home. The Forehand 1901 wouldn't fire. The firing pin didn't reach the primer. At least not enough to ignite the primers.

Overall a dissapointing trip.

 

[Johnm1]

I'm going to wait until @Paul R Zartman updates on the difficulty of reinstalling before I take the mainspring out. I had removed the interference between the firing pin and the frame and had 100% ignition when I testd with primed only brass. But apparently something moved and the interference returned before the function test with live ammo. I fiddled with the anchor point of the mainspring last night. By sliding the anchor point from right to left in the frame I can achieve an additional 0.015" of firing pin protrusion and the interference with the frame goes away. I think this all is in support of @Jackrabbit1957 `s theory that there is some movement in the hammer pivot area.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

I'm going to wait until @Paul R Zartman updates on the difficulty of reinstalling

Not difficult at all, mainspring tension when hammer was in firing position was very little, mine was rather easy...but mine doesn't have the trigger return spring that recocks the hammer, but it was not much tension at all to reinstall.

 

[Johnm1]

Not difficult at all, mainspring tension when hammer was in firing position was very little, mine was rather easy...but mine doesn't have the trigger return spring that recocks the hammer, but it was not much tension at all to reinstall.

That tells me something that I didn't realize.

I tried to 'bend' the mainspring in a little to see how much force it would take. I wasn't aggressive enough to actually remove the mainspring but I was using a large amount of force.

Although I knew that the trigger spring 'rebounded' the hammer I didn't realize that it added force back onto the mainspring. But of course it would. Anything that backs the hammer from the firing position after the trigger is released, ie. rebounding hammer, would by nature put pressure on the hammer and thus the mainspring. I'm gonna guess that the trigger return spring will pop out as soon as I release the mainspring.

When I get home from work I'll post a short clip of the rebounding hammer. It is a safety feature.

 

[Johnm1]

@Paul R Zartman Here is the video of the rebounding hammer

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YMgt8NB96e3Z63Mq6

 

[Johnm1]

So now that we know that the trigger return spring adds force through the trigger/hammer unto the mainspring, the question is both how to disassemble and reassemble it. There is an access plate behind the trigger.





I dont have the strength to compress/bend the mainspring fully assembled. Maybe there was a spring compression tool that the buiders used to assemble the firearm. I don't know but I don't have one and I'm not sure I could design/build one. Possibly. I won't rule that out yet but that isn't the direction I think I should go.

I don't like the option of drifting the mainspring out of its anchor at full tension even if the hammer is held in its most forward, least tension position. That seems to lend itself to a broken mainspring. Even compressing the mainspring in its compressed condition might cause damage. It is at least 100 years old.

I think I can remove the access plate, take out the trigger pivot pin and relieve the pressure on both the mainspring and trigger return spring by dropping the trigger down and out. Once the tension is relieved on both springs I can complete the disassembly. I really would like people's opinion on this.

As I see it, reassembly is different than disassembly. I know how hard it is to install the trigger return spring with the firearm otherwise assembled. But I think that is how the firearm was assembled. Basically we would reassemble the guts of the firearm inside the frame, what ever that would entail, install the mainspring and then the trigger return spring. It is unwieldy but I am less afraid of damaging the smaller trigger return spring.

I can sort of see it in my brain but without a diagram I'm just guessing. Maybe I can put together a hand sketch to show you what I'm thinking. That will of course be a guess on the shape and configuration of the parts I can't see inside the frame. That will be known only after those parts come out of the frame. Hopefully at something less than 100 MPH.

I'm open for discussion on the pluses and minuses and I I'm not married to this thought. What am I not thinking about?

 

[Johnm1]

While we are pondering disassembly, I thought I'd share the video firing the Dog. As you can see all 5 went off eventually.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pwftvUS7ApuN4DRQ7

Although I had 3 different loads all of these were 40 grain lead bullets pulled from some Blazer and the charge pulled from those same cartridges minus about 0.20 grains of whatever smokeless powder the Blazers contained. With the misfires I didn't continue to shoot. That is 5 yards.

Here are the results on target. It took a shot to figure out the sights.



Primers were normal but there is a deformation of the case about 4/10" from the case head that I really can't explain. You can sort of see what I'm talking about on the case farthest to the right.

 

[Johnm1]

I fiddled with the anchor point of the mainspring last night. By sliding the anchor point from right to left in the frame I can achieve an additional 0.015" of firing pin protrusion and the interference with the frame goes away. I think this all is in support of @Jackrabbit1957 `s theory that there is some movement in the hammer pivot area.

This is an interesting turn of events. I function tested with the mainspring all the way to the left and got 100% ignition on primer only cases. I think that I not only get 0.015" more protrusion but I think it actually moves the strike area closer to the center.

But I'd like to share a part of a discussion in a PM regarding repairs. My comment was:

"It's over 100 years old and I think sometimes the right decision is to accept that it isn't perfect and not risk causing damage during repair"

And the response was:

"Agreed - if it works the job is done"

I like working on these things, but I don't want to end up with a pile of parts with no chance of repair. If the `spring left` arrangement continues to work I can stake the mainspring anchor point to only allow the mainspring to be installed in the best location. It will take some additional testing to prove it out, but I really don't want to do any damage in the pursuit of making it perfect.

Here is a picture of the `Spring Left ` arrangement. After the misfires at the range the spring was all the way to the right.



The total distance from the edge of the mainspring to the edge of the frame is 0.050"

More to follow after some additional testing and some deep thought on what the next step is.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Is there any movement of the hammer side to side? Maybe shimming the hammer to the left would do the trick.

 

[Johnm1]

Is there any movement of the hammer side to side? Maybe shimming the hammer to the left would do the trick.

I tried to move the hammer to the right and think that is how the spring anchor got moved to the right. Under spring tension the hammer doesn't move side to side by pushing it. It might not move without spring tension. I can't tell without removing the springs.

I'm going to continue to test as it is configured. Maybe we're done.

 

[Johnm1]

Well, good news. I have cycled 24 blanks consecutively without a failure. The discouraging thing is that what I have been trying to address is almost certainly not the cause of the misfires. From the time I first got this gun putting the cylinder pin in place has always been difficult. The back of the cylinder pin wants to slip out of the hole in the recoil shield and the cylinder wouldn't cycle. Once the ejector rod was in place the pin appeared to stay in place and the cylinder would rotate. Here is how the cylinder pin and cylinder look when installed correctly. I have removed the ejector for clarity.



Cylinder pin Partially installed



Cylinder pin without the cylinder



Close up of the cylinder pin slightly short of its final position. Notice the smaller part at the end of the cylinder pin that enters into the hole in the recoil shield. The cylinder pin is not pushed all the way in to final position. This picture is to show its arrangement.



The below picture is with the cylinder pin pushed all the way in to its final assembled position. Notice how little of the cylinder pin has entered the hole in the recoil shield. It is barely in.



And the slightest bit of forward movement of the cylinder pin and the cylinder is no longer anchored at the recoil shield and the cylinder shifts to the right. Even though the cylinder will cycle when the ejector is installed doesn't mean the cylinder pin is anchored in its hole in the recoil shield. It just means that the cylinder pin is close enough to cycle.

Here is a close up of the cylinder pin inside the hole in the recoil shield from the hammer side. Note how much farther the cylinder pin could go in.



And here is a similar picture with the ejector rod installed




Here is a close up of the cylinder pin.



It seems to me the only way to correct this condition is to increase the distance between the two screwdrivers. To do this I'd need to stone/file the surface that the right screwdriver is pointing to.

In today's function test and previous function tests at home I was able to assure that the cylinder pin was installed correctly. I suspect that in traveling to the range for the failed field fire test this weekend the cylinder pin backed out.

Good news is we don't have to do anything regarding the firing pin.

@Paul R Zartman - if you could snap a picture of your cylinder pin I'd appreciate it.

EDIT TO ADD: the right edge of th micrometer shows how much actually enters the hole in the recoil shield. And that part is beveled from wear.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

That is absolutely fascinating, I never thought of the cylinder pin pin being the root cause, good catch!
Next question is what are you going to do to fix it?

 

[Johnm1]

Next question is what are you going to do to fix it

Although there is the possibility to add material to the cylinder pin, I think the most expedient way to fix it is to thin the backside of the front of the pin. In the 2nd to last picture in post 70 above the surface to be thinned is the surface the right screwdriver is pointing to. That is the surface that limits the inward travel of the cylinder pin. There is enough material there to move it 2-3 thousandths. That may or may not be enough. But I think it will.

 

[Johnm1]

Other options include soldering on a thin washer onto the pin and fitting it into the hole in the frame or making a flanged bushing that fits into the hole and sticks out a fraction of an inch.

 

[Johnm1]

Although we did correct the interference between the firing pin and the frame, we spent a lot of time addressing a problem that otherwise didn't exist. The result of being a tinkerer instead of a gunsmith and more evidence of the mantra `Go Slow`. Observe, test and truly understand the problem before acting.

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Paul R Zartman - if you could snap a picture of your cylinder pin I'd appreciate it.

I will tomorrow sometime after work...