Best 10mm defensive load?

[Elkins45]

For many years the word on the internet was the the best 10mm factory round for defensive use was the Winchester 175 grain Silvertip. I know it's one of the ones that was always loaded to utilize the full velocity potential of the round.

Who else is currently making a JHP round that isn't just a fancy 40 S&W in terms of velocity? Finding the Silvertip these days is becoming an exercise inn patience.

 

[TomJ]

Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Doubletap all make full power 10mm ammo. I use Underwood's 165 grain Gold Dots in my Glock 20 and 29. It uses a proven SD bullet and the recoil is very manageable.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-165-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point/

 

[CDW4ME]

Hornady 175 Critical Duty essentially replicates the velocity & KE of the Silvertip, 165 Underwood Gold Dot takes it (KE) up considerably (along with recoil).

Hornady Critical Duty gel test with 4 layer denim: 13'' / .69 (1,153 fps / 517# KE / PF 202)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfDnbEnPz68

Winchester Silvertip (your referenced load) 16'' / .64 (1,170 fps / 533# KE / PF 205)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNL30om6Eo

Underwood 165 Gold Dot penetrated 12.1'' / .85 (1,450 fps / 771# KE / PF 239)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHYEhGlw87M

That ^ answered the OP question.
What follows is not of interest for people wanting nothing less than nuclear 10mm ammo and / or not concerned with 2nd shot time, stop reading now.

The ability to deliver quick & accurate (subjective) follow up shots is a consideration for me when selecting SD ammo.
For me quick is 1/3 second (.33) or less, accurate is both shots hitting a 6 inch circle at 7 yards with a 1/3 second split (my subjective standard).

If you have shot a full size 1911 with 230 gr. ammo then you know about how the recoil feels.
45 acp 230 HST produces fairly standard velocity and recoil for a 230 gr. 45 acp and a PF of 198
230 Ranger T is hotter, and its noticeable, bumping up recoil to PF 214
Glock 21 SF
Federal HST 230 gr. @ 863 fps / 380# KE / PF 198
Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 931 fps / 443# KE / PF 214
Glock 20 SF
Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,146 fps / 510# KE / PF 201
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,335 fps / 614# KE / PF 207

45 acp 230 Ranger T and Hornady 155 XTP test my ability to keep a 1/3 second split (my toleration for recoil), both shots on 6'' circle.
I try to keep recoil level similar with my 20SF and 21SF for SD, ammo selected accordingly.

I speculate that many shooters will have difficulty with quick & accurate (as defined above) follow up shots when the PF exceeds 200 by much (1911 or Glock 20 / 21)

If someone is satisfied with 1 second split times then they may be happy with hotter ammo.
(Many people probably don't know (or care) what their split times are with their carry gun and defensive ammo )

This video shows how it may be necessary to deliver quick & accurate follow up shots in self defense:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e75_1464135562

 

[kerreckt]

Reloading is the best option I have found for tailoring 10mm (or any other) round to you specific needs. I load 200gr SWC with 5.2gr. of VV N340 for my 10mm defensive ammo. This gives 900-950fps at muzzle without brutish recoil. Best wishes.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I know it's one of the ones that was always loaded to utilize the full velocity potential of the round.

Not even close.

Full power loads are pushing 180 gr. bullets at 1,350-1,400 FPS from 5" guns.

 

[Elkins45]

Not even close.

Full power loads are pushing 180 gr. bullets at 1,350-1,400 FPS from 5" guns.

200 grains at 1200fps was the spec for the original Norma load IIRC.

I should have specified that the Silvertip was one of the few widely available commercial loads that at least came close. Most commercial 10mm these days except the boutique manufacturers is really just a long 40 in terms of energy.

 

[CDW4ME]

200 grains at 1200fps was the spec for the original Norma load IIRC.

I should have specified that the Silvertip was one of the few widely available commercial loads that at least came close. Most commercial 10mm these days except the boutique manufacturers is really just a long 40 in terms of energy.

You can get 200 gr. @ 1,261 fps / 706# KE / PF 252 (Glock 20) with Underwood (Boutique...?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918

Yes, most commercial ammo from "regular" makers is not loaded hot, although Hornady loads exceed 40 S&W.
180 Hornady XTP 10mm @ 1,155 fps / 533# KE from Glock 20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X6vNZTbF7s

5 shot averages from my 40 S&W Glock 22:
Federal Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 963 fps / 371# KE
Winchester White Box 180 JHP @ 964 fps / 372# KE
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr. @ 975 fps / 380# KE
Average for those three "regular" factory 180 gr. loads = 967 fps / 374# KE

10mm Hornady 180 gr (above) has 30% more KE than a typical 180 gr. 40 S&W

You said it, boutique ammo if you want 700# KE 10mm loads.

 

[Elkins45]

Sounds like Hornady or Underwood are my best choices for factory stuff.

I do wonder how Underwood gets that much KE and still stays within SAAMI specs---or do they even claim to be within spec? Hmmm...more research is required. Thanks for the inks and info.

 

[TomJ]

Buffalo Bore's website has some good and concise advice as to picking 10mm SD ammo and the downside of picking unnecessarily powerful ammo with excessive recoil. The link is attached below. I was at the range Saturday testing their 155 grain low recoil ammo along with Underwood's 165 grain Gold Dot and Doubletap's 125 grain Barnes TC-XP. That link is below as well. All functioned well and I'm confident in all 3. The felt recoil to me from all 3 were comparable, but Underwood's ammo is half the cost of the other 2, tipping the scales in their favor.


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=413

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_301&product_id=435

 

[GarrettJ]

Keep in mind, bullets are designed to work best within a certain velocity range. Apparently Federal thinks the mid-900s is ideal for the 180 gr. Hydra-Shock. I say this, as the .40 version and 10mm loadings with this bullet gave average velocities within 14 fps of each other for me with similar barrel lengths (Glock 23 vs. Glock 29).

That doesn't necessarily make the 10mm version "bad". It just means it should perform the same as the .40 version.

The two 10mm defense loads I like are the 175 gr. Silvertip, and the 180 gr. Hornady JHP. Both are what I would consider a mid-range load, giving velocities in the 1150 to 1250 fps range from my Colt Delta. As noted above, they give a good balance between muzzle velocity / energy and the recoil of the more powerful loadings.

 

[Casefull]

My bear recipe load is 10.9g 800x under 180 jhp. This runs right at 1300 fps out of my glock 20. About the same in my other 10mm guns. I use a wolf barrel so the brass looks fine without the glock bulge. Most factory loads are quite anemic as others have said. No reason to shoot 10mm over 40sw if one does not handload in my opinion. Buffalo I suppose.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I switched to Underwood (who lets you pick the bullet even if you have to wait months) rather than play the Buffalo Bore bullet lottery.

Mike

 

[RX-79G]

The "best" 10mm defensive load is unlikely to be the one loaded to the full potential of the caliber. Standard .40 loads are already very effective, controllability so you can put the rounds where they can do the most damage is more important than ultimate terminal ballistics.

 

[Elkins45]

The "best" 10mm defensive load is unlikely to be the one loaded to the full potential of the caliber. Standard .40 loads are already very effective, controllability so you can put the rounds where they can do the most damage is more important than ultimate terminal ballistics.

Sounds like an argument for the 22 short as a defensive round.

I can control 10mm just fine. Besides, the first one goes to the same place regardless.

 

[barnbwt]

Sounds like an argument for the 22 short as a defensive round.

Not really; 40 S&W goes a lot deeper than 22 short while still being controllable

 

[RX-79G]

Sounds like an argument for the 22 short as a defensive round.

I can control 10mm just fine. Besides, the first one goes to the same place regardless.

Sounds like an argument for .480 Ruger.


The problem with buying or even loading defense ammo is that the bullet makers design their products for a somewhat narrow range of velocities for a given design. Too much velocity and the hollow point expands too early or breaks up. 10mm is not an actively designed for defensive caliber by ammo companies, so there is no projectile that is ideal for the increased velocities offered by full 10mm loads.

So when you do your research about what loads show the best performance in lab gelatin tests, they are likely to be loads using the same bullet as some .40 loads at similar velocities.

And if you should choose such a load, because it is more effective, you'll still get to keep your tough guy card.

Here's some good reading on the subject. "DocGKR" is a renowned ballistics expert known in many circles as "the Dentist".

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21005-We-have-40sw-ammo-so-why-the-watered-down-10mm

 

[Elkins45]

Sounds like an argument for .480 Ruger.

Does Glock make a 15 round auto in .480 Ruger? Then sign me up for one.

10mm is not an actively designed for defensive caliber

Several factory loadings for 10mm existed before the 40 S&W was invented. Were those bullets designed in the future and then transported back to the past? And what about the Hornady 200 grain XTP? They don't even offer 40 S&W ammo with that bullet, so why was it designed? http://www.hornady.com/store/40-S-and-W

Unfortunately they don't offer it in loaded 10mm either, so it has to come from boutique companies like Underwood.

you'll still get to keep your tough guy card.

Did you get tired of being beaten down by Frank and decide to go insult someone else for a while?

 

[Elkins45]

Not really; 40 S&W goes a lot deeper than 22 short while still being controllable

I understand the controllability argument, but I also understand the value of kinetic energy. The whole point of 10mm as opposed to other auto chamberings is delivering KE. A 200 grain bullet at 1200fps is unlikely to come apart, and even if it does the damage would still be extensive.

I'll take more over less in most circumstances, and I think this is one of them.

 

[lpsharp88]

My bear recipe load is 10.9g 800x under 180 jhp. This runs right at 1300 fps out of my glock 20. About the same in my other 10mm guns. I use a wolf barrel so the brass looks fine without the glock bulge. Most factory loads are quite anemic as others have said. No reason to shoot 10mm over 40sw if one does not handload in my opinion. Buffalo I suppose.

My bear load is 10.1gr 800-X under a 180gr XTP. I chronoed it at 1350 from my Glock 20 with KKM drop in. Wonder what causes the difference

 

[RX-79G]

Does Glock make a 15 round auto in .480 Ruger? Then sign me up for one.



Several factory loadings for 10mm existed before the 40 S&W was invented. Were those bullets designed in the future and then transported back to the past? And what about the Hornady 200 grain XTP? They don't even offer 40 S&W ammo with that bullet, so why was it designed? http://www.hornady.com/store/40-S-and-W

Unfortunately they don't offer it in loaded 10mm either, so it has to come from boutique companies like Underwood.



Did you get tired of being beaten down by Frank and decide to go insult someone else for a while?

The best loads of 20 years ago aren't as good as the best loads of today. But you are certainly welcome to travel back in time to select your ammo.

"Delivering kinetic energy" is the problem. Rounds the grossly overpenetrate or disintegrate near the surface aren't delivering that energy to someplace useful.



Does Glock make a .22 Short?

 

[Elkins45]

The best loads of 20 years ago aren't as good as the best loads of today. But you are certainly welcome to travel back in time to select your ammo.

"Delivering kinetic energy" is the problem. Rounds the grossly overpenetrate or disintegrate near the surface aren't delivering that energy to someplace useful.



Does Glock make a .22 Short?

Bullets with a wide flat meplat deliver energy effectively even if they do over penetrate. I've shot an awful lot of living things with flat nosed cast bullets and have observed there is indeed a proportional relationship between KE and speed of incapacitation, and the bullets are invariably lost on the other side of the animal.

The 40 is superior to 10 argument is predicated on either recovery times or bullet failures. I imagine there is very little empirical evidence of 10mm bullet failures in actual shootings because not that many people have been shot with full-power 10mm. I know that the Kentucky State Police issued full-power ammo to their troopers when they carried the 1076 so if there's data on KSP shootings during the 90's it would be informative.

Data on the 40 can't be defensibly extrapolated to a different caliber based on gel testing. People shoot gel because it's all they have, not because its a perfect human analog. You're welcome to your opinion but I'll take the extra horsepower just the same.

 

[RX-79G]

The problem with all of that is that the damage a flat bullet at pistol velocities does is due to permanent cavity. A flat 10mm bullet may produce 28" wound channel compared to a .40 at maybe 22", but does that matter if people are only 10" thick? Most of that extra energy isn't doing anything except hitting your backstop harder. Temporary cavity isn't a factor at 10mm velocities.


You asked what the "best 10mm defensive load" is, but you seem to be arguing that you either already know what it is, or that the methods used by ammunition developers and Federal agencies are erroneous.

If you think you know better, and that ballistic science is bad, what sort of answer did you expect to your question? Did you just want someone to confirm your biases and just ignore what experts think?


And this isn't a question of .40 being "superior" to 10mm, it is just the fact that 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 and .45 are getting engineering dollars, and 10mm, 9x23, 9x18 and other oddballs are not. A 10mm pistol is a great thing - since it can fire effective hunting loads and SD ammo. But that SD ammo is currently going to be the kind that uses the best .40 bullets loaded to .40 velocities, not an Elk load.

 

[Elkins45]

This was the actual question:

Who else is currently making a JHP round that isn't just a fancy 40 S&W in terms of velocity?

I actually received pretty good answers to it in posts #3 and #7.

The velocity downgrading of much current 10mm ammo wasn't done to make it have better terminal performance. It was done to make it more controllable. And I haven't seen much proof that the current "true" 10mm loads have inadequate bullets. When you look at the effective velocity ranges for the Hornady XTP line they make it seem as if the bullets can handle the full range of 40 to 10.

 

[RX-79G]

Let's put it this way, if there was a large LE demand for full power 10mm SD loads, the ammo makers would develop a terrific bullet design for that load.

But since there isn't that demand, they have not developed such a bullet.


It is just like .357 SIG. Because of the increased velocity over 9mm, .357 SIG has its own projectiles optimised for .357 velocities.


You can't take a .40 bullet, add another 200 fps to it and expect it to work better. It is actually more likely to work worse.

Some boutique ammo maker can claim to be making a top notch 10mm bullet and load, but it is unlikely that a boutique firm can do the R&D necessary to match what Hornandy or Speer did to create and test their bonded SD ammo.


I would personally much rather own a G20 than a G22, but I would not expect the G20 to work better against people, even though I would expect it to do other things much better than the G22.

 

[CDW4ME]

Here is a "nuclear" load that produces a tolerable (to me) calculated recoil (PF).
Underwood 135 Nosler 1,594 fps / 767# KE / PF 215 (similar PF to 45 acp Ranger T 230)
Penetration at 10.5 -11'' after 4 layer denim is on the shallow end, but I imagine it would be quite effective on a frontal shot (expansion to .68)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGQgnlPlb0