Best 10mm defensive load?

[barnbwt]

You asked what the "best 10mm defensive load" is, but you seem to be arguing that you either already know what it is, or that the methods used by ammunition developers and Federal agencies are erroneous.

I think the issue may be that 'best XXXX defensive load' is a topic of debate itself, and that the OP seems to subscribe to the Old School of Thought about Keith wadcutter 357s being the end-all be-all in the bad old cast/FMJ days, despite specifically asking about modern jacketed hollowpoints for defensive (human) use*.

In that case, 'best' here only means 'hottest,' and the question is both simpler and rather limited in real world utility, since the hottest 10mm loads aren't the most practical for a host of reasons (same as with any given cartridge)

TCB

*If you drive a large lump of lead --which is what the 40-cal +180gr slugs are getting into-- fast enough, you're pretty much guaranteed to penetrate well past a human no matter what kind of realistic expansion or organic materials are involved. So the 40cal bullets were designed to operate at about the speed that results in them penetrating the typical 12-14" thickness of an adult human while expanding as much as possible. Going faster won't make them expand significantly more (you can only expand a HP bullet so far before it breaks up and loses its increased cross section) without generating a lot of recoil and useless inertia that acts solely to carry the bullet further past the exit wound. If you need more penetration for something like a bear or cougar, going faster with a tougher bullet makes sense, but it is simply not needed for humans. No 10mm is going anywhere near fast enough to get the sorts of shock effects seen in 2X faster pistol or rifle rounds, so the wound you get is directly correlated to the cross section of the bullet at any given moment during its travel.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Originally Posted by Casefull View Post
My bear recipe load is 10.9g 800x under 180 jhp. This runs right at 1300 fps out of my glock 20. About the same in my other 10mm guns. I use a wolf barrel so the brass looks fine without the glock bulge. Most factory loads are quite anemic as others have said. No reason to shoot 10mm over 40sw if one does not handload in my opinion. Buffalo I suppose.

My bear load is 10.1gr 800-X under a 180gr XTP. I chronoed it at 1350 from my Glock 20 with KKM drop in. Wonder what causes the difference

Primers is one possibility. 800x likes magnum primers.

I use CCI 350 primers igniting 10.8 gr. 800x under a 180 gr. Golden Sabre, which averages 1,406 FPS from my 5" S&W 1006 and 1,342 FPS from my 3.5" Witness Compact. I have never chronographed it from my Witness limited, Kimber ST II or G20. I expect it would be similar to the 1006, though. The Golden Saber has a "driving band", meaning there is less bearing area than most other bullets, which likely accounts for the velocity increase.

 

[Elkins45]

I think the issue may be that 'best XXXX defensive load' is a topic of debate itself, and that the OP seems to subscribe to the Old School of Thought about Keith wadcutter 357s being the end-all be-all in the bad old cast/FMJ days, despite specifically asking about modern jacketed hollowpoints for defensive (human) use*.

In that case, 'best' here only means 'hottest,' and the question is both simpler and rather limited in real world utility, since the hottest 10mm loads aren't the most practical for a host of reasons (same as with any given cartridge)

TCB

*If you drive a large lump of lead --which is what the 40-cal +180gr slugs are getting into-- fast enough, you're pretty much guaranteed to penetrate well past a human no matter what kind of realistic expansion or organic materials are involved. So the 40cal bullets were designed to operate at about the speed that results in them penetrating the typical 12-14" thickness of an adult human while expanding as much as possible. Going faster won't make them expand significantly more (you can only expand a HP bullet so far before it breaks up and loses its increased cross section) without generating a lot of recoil and useless inertia that acts solely to carry the bullet further past the exit wound. If you need more penetration for something like a bear or cougar, going faster with a tougher bullet makes sense, but it is simply not needed for humans. No 10mm is going anywhere near fast enough to get the sorts of shock effects seen in 2X faster pistol or rifle rounds, so the wound you get is directly correlated to the cross section of the bullet at any given moment during its travel.

I respectfully disagree with both of your points. The very last thing I am is a Keith/Cooper type. I was merely trying to be brief because I was typing on a phone. What I was saying is that there is more than one way to effectively transfer energy.

I also disagree with your point about shock. There's no magic velocity threshold at which KE begins having a shock effect. It's always present, but the energy formula rewards velocity as the squared variable. So there's always more with faster bullets, and more is always better. And if a bullet tears apart after 8" of penetration then it will disrupt a lot of stuff as it does so. I don't think you are going to be seeing surface wounds---any round is going to hold together at least long enough to get through the rib cage and the very soft stuff inside it.

Are there many documented cases of under penetrating 40 or 10mm bullets?

 

[RX-79G]

Would you call a 10mm round with the petals of the HP torn off in the first few inches "underpenetration"?


Effectiveness of defensive ammo comes down to the volume of the wound channel, and that comes from the HP expanding in a predictable way at the right depth. That is the one and only "energy dump" that a handgun velocity caliber can perform. Any reasonable caliber, like 9mm, will poke a deep hole.

 

[Snowdog]

Just about anything from Underwood is loaded to velocity the 10mm was intended to have. I personally have chosen the 140gr Xtreme Penetrators (1500 FPS and 700 Ft/Lbs) but it doubles as a hiking pistol and black bear deterrent.

If I'm going into known bear territory with recent sightings, I leave the 10mm at home and take the XDm 5.25 in .460 Rowland.

I think the 10mm is making a slow, but steady comeback. That's my hope, anyway.

 

[Elkins45]

Would you call a 10mm round with the petals of the HP torn off in the first few inches "underpenetration"?

Torn off in what? Someone's heart and lungs? Or a block of jello?

 

[RX-79G]

If you are saying that gelatin testing is pointless, whose real hearts and lungs are you expecting people to base their findings on?

 

[Elkins45]

Not saying it's pointless. it's the next best thing that's available. Chemotherapy isn't pointless, but there are lots of people it doesn't cure.

This thread wasn't started as a debate, it was started as a request for information. I think I will let others continue a debate about what makes a good defensive load if they wish. It appears all the answers to my original question that are forthcoming have already been posted, and I really don't wish to argue about the kinetic energy and bullet design anymore.

 

[CDW4ME]

Copper bullets - Barnes Tac-XP

The Barnes 140 gr. Tac-XP which I specifically loaded for my 29 SF w/ chopped grip (doesn't have a place for pinky with flush magazines).
Glock 20 SF
Handload Barnes Tac-XP 140 gr. @ 1,247 fps / 484# KE / PF 175
Glock 29 SF
Handload Barnes Tac-XP 140 gr. @ 1,190 fps / 440# KE / (-57 fps) PF 167

Recoil (muzzle flip) with this load is mild in the 29 SF and so low its comparable to shooting a Glock 19C when shooting it in the 20 SF.

Seen here, the Barnes 140 gr. bullet's performance after 4 layer denim is right on with 13 3/4'' penetration and expansion up to .76 and that is with only 1,161 fps from a Glock 29. I shot my handload into water filled gallon jugs and the recovered bullet was just like the video - expanded 3/4''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyHYNmDiGEw

I know, that's good performance, but it's not 10mm KE ... didn't buy a 10mm to shoot 40 S&W ....

I got you covered.
Doubletap 10mm Barnes Tac-XP 125 gr. 1,470 fps / 600# KE (PF 184 - low recoil)
14 1/4'' penetration with .66 expansion after 4 layer denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkdmV-tw1Nk

 

[ATLDave]

As a few posters have hinted, there's really no way to answer this question without having a common/shared understanding of terminal ballistics. And that's hard to get. The Facklerites will say that ALL that matters is permanent wound channel and whether that channel intersects something vital. If so, then once you've met the FBI test criteria* (or something along those lines) for penetration, then there really isn't any improvement available except by having a larger diameter projectile or creating more wound channels with additional rounds. If you subscribe to this view of terminal ballistics, then one of the milder 10mm rounds with a reasonably-tough but still well-expanding modern JHP is the answer, because more velocity just equals more recoil which means fewer wound channels.

If, OTOH, you think there is some shock/ballistic-pressure-wave injury/incapacitation mechanism in terminal ballistics at sub-2k fps speeds, then more velocity driving the same bullet might be expected to increase your odds of such a mechanism having an effect in any particular circumstance. In which case you'd really need to carefully weigh how much extra velocity you want to acquire by trading in slower splits.

And if two people are of opposite schools of thought re: terminal ballistics, it's going to be REALLY tough for them to have a meaningful conversation. It's like arguing about whether Greg Maddux or Troy Aikman was better... you're not even talking the same game/language.

* Obviously, if your anticipated/feared target is something other than a human, you'd want to modify your model parameters to take account of different tissue/organ depth, bone structure, comparative rarity of denim jackets worn by bears, etc.

 

[Elkins45]

Well, since we're talking about bears now, my bear load is a handload. I wouldn't carry a handload for SD, which is why I inquired about factory ammo.

My 10mm bear load is 13 grains of AA#9 under a 200 grain water-quenched cast lead WFN from a NOE mold. These are loaded in new Starline brass, and the brass is only used for mid-power loads in subsequent loadings. This chronographs at 1200 fps from a Glock 20.

 

[harrygunner]

The performance of Winchester 175 grain Silvertip is wildly overstated. That 1290 ft/s figure had to come from a test barrel that has few characteristics in common with real barrels.

My carry load is Underwood 200gr XTP. I measured averages of 1183 ft/s 620 ft-lb from my 1911 Commander length 10mm and 1143 ft/s 579 ft-lb from my Glock 29.

 

[barnbwt]

If you are saying that gelatin testing is pointless, whose real hearts and lungs are you expecting people to base their findings on?

Interns named Chet, maybe? I do love the skepticism people have for gelatin; completely ignores the fact that this material was chosen/developed in the place for the express purpose of yielding similar wound channels/damage as was seen in living tissue, better than any alternative. I trust the FBI enough to conclude the results won't be wildly inaccurate, especially for the same types of rounds the gel was originally developed to test.

TCB

 

[eldon519]

If you are asking about the best defensive load for a pistol caliber and basing part of that assessment on kinetic energy, then this exercise is hopelessly flawed from the start.

 

[Elkins45]

If you are asking about the best defensive load for a pistol caliber and basing part of that assessment on kinetic energy, then this exercise is hopelessly flawed from the start.

That's an interesting statement. Please tell me more about those very effective defensive loads where KE=0?

It was never intended to be an exercise to start with. In typical internet forum fashion, I asked a question and in response I had a couple of people who answered the question and also had a bunch of people tell me it was a stupid question.

I do love the skepticism people have for gelatin

And I love the skepticism people have for physics.

better than any alternative.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the role of KE should be ignored either. I will again ask if there's any empirical evidence that full power 10mm loads perform less well in terms of human incapacitation that 40 S&W loads. I suspect this concern is based more on extrapolation and inference than on real data.

 

[CDW4ME]

If you are asking about the best defensive load for a pistol caliber and basing part of that assessment on kinetic energy, then this exercise is hopelessly flawed from the start.

Only if you think KE doesn't matter.
KE increases: caliber related, same diameter bullet (except 357 Sig):
40 --> 10mm
40 --> 357 Sig
38 Special --> 357 Mag
380 --> 9mm (Yea, bullet weight, but KE too)

Hypothetical, at ground level a deer will be shot broadside behind the shoulder (double lung) - which caliber do you think would result in the shortest tracking job.
38 Special 158 gr. JHP +P
357 Mag 158 gr. JHP
40 S&W 180 gr. (967 fps)
10mm 180 gr. (1,155 fps)

Gonna pick the 38 Special or 40 S&W since KE doesn't matter?
Most would pick the 357 Mag or 10mm because they know KE does matter.

 

[eldon519]

Straw man argument.

 

[RX-79G]

38 HPs are designed differently than .357 Mag HPs.

380 HPs are designed differently than 9mm HPs.

9mm HPs are designed differently than .357 SIG HPs.



Why do you guys think that is? Physics doesn't go away, including its effect on how HPs function.

 

[CDW4ME]

Straw man argument.

Valid it is.

How about comparing the stretch cavity in gel, or does that not count either.

38 Special Golden Saber 125 gr. +p (886 fps / 218# KE)
13.75'' penetration / .62 expansion after 4 layer denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRe6BzIqu6U

357 Sig HST 125 gr. (1,375 fps / 525# KE)
13.25'' penetration / .60 expansion after 4 layer denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLkpIljrNA

In those examples both bullets are the same diameter & weight, both penetrated and expanded nearly the same.

Some people may think increasing KE from 218# to 525# (58% more) won't potentially decrease incapacitation time, I ain't one of em.

I could find videos for 40 and 10mm, but if the previous comparison didn't illustrate the difference increased KE makes, neither will subsequent examples.

 

[RX-79G]

Valid it is.

How about comparing the stretch cavity in gel, or does that not count either.

38 Special Golden Saber 125 gr. +p (886 fps / 218# KE)
13.75'' penetration / .62 expansion after 4 layer denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRe6BzIqu6U

357 Sig HST 125 gr. (1,375 fps / 525# KE)
13.25'' penetration / .60 expansion after 4 layer denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLkpIljrNA

In those examples both bullets are the same diameter & weight, both penetrated and expanded nearly the same.

Some people may think increasing KE from 218# to 525# (58% more) won't potentially decrease incapacitation time, I ain't one of em.

I could find videos for 40 and 10mm, but if the previous comparison didn't illustrate the difference increased KE makes, neither will subsequent examples.

But the two .357 bullets used are completely different designs, which is why the .357 SIG one didn't massively overpenetrate.

No one is saying that 10mm is theoretically pointless. We are trying to point out that no one has done the good bullet design that allows .357 SIG to perform that way for 10mm velocities with .40/10mm bullets. That's the reason you couldn't find a good .40 to 10mm comparison.

7.62 Tokarev might also be awesome for SD, but not one puts the R&D into that caliber.

 

[eldon519]

"Please tell me more about those very effective defensive loads where KE=0?"
That is the straw man argument I was referring to.

But no, temporary stretch cavity doesn't matter outside of a few inelastic organs like the liver. That is why they call it a TEMPORARY stretch cavity. If you are hitting the heart-lung region, all that extra KE (or more so the associated momentum) just slows down your follow up shots. If you want to believe in all that, it is your choice. You can also study geocentric astronomy and alchemical transmutation if you please. But your own example indicated that the increase in KE did not significantly increase the size of the permanent cavity. In fact, if you look at the LE literature for penetration and expansion tests provided by Winchester and Federal for their Ranger and HST rounds, respectively, they do not even provide KE figures. That is because people in the know are not concerned with it. Hence why the FBI recently selected the 9mm 147 as their round of choice, a round which is consistently at the bottom of the heap for KE figures in semiautomatic service rounds. And I'm willing to bet their testing budget and database of OIS reports is a tad bigger than yours. I know it is hard to fathom, but their opinion might be more informed than yours.

 

[barnbwt]

Elkins, what exactly (as in, in gruesome detail) do you say a higher speed projectile is doing above and beyond another at lower speed, when the slower one is already likely to pass completely through the subject?

-It's well known that hydro-static shock/tearing effects do not reliably start to realize until above 2000fps, and are strictly correlated to velocity. No 10mm approaches these speeds. Point for high-end 5.7 perhaps, but not 10mm.
-For a given mass, it is only possible to expand a JHP so far before it loses structural integrity and breaks up, so even if a hardier bullet that can withstand the strain is designed & used, it will not be wider than a weaker expanding bullet operating at its design velocity

The 10mm was never designed for sufficient performance on people. Like the 38 Special, it's purpose was punching through what were seen as common barriers encountered by police in the field, and then continue on with sufficient performance. 40 S&W largely dropped this extra requirement, and in so doing was able to drop back down to 9mm power levels, which were found to be not only adequate the vast majority of the time, but advantageous to a more powerful round.

What I'm getting at, is unless ultimate penetration is your goal --as would be the case for a bear-gun or hunting pistol-- the 10mm is not going to be significantly more dramatic than 40 S&W, and therefore hot 10mm will be even less incrementally impressive over standard 10mm.

10mm is a really cool cartridge, since it's basically the closest thing to a 357 Automag that is at all common (more powerful than a service pistol round, but has enough headroom above the standard load to stretch its legs a bit with heavier bullets, unlike 357SIG that's stuck at low-end 357 only). Makes it a great carbine round in my opinion, a great back country round capable of both hunting and defending against wildlife in most regions, and entertaining to shoot for those who like a little extra power/recoil but not punishment. Doesn't make it a particularly advantageous service pistol round, however.

TCB

 

[harrygunner]

Consider this assessment of fast, heavy 10mm ammo:

Dr. Gary Roberts from http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439&page=4

A well designed, full power, 200 gr 10 mm generally offers superior terminal effects compared with .40 S&W, as the 10 mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ...

Reactions to recoil vary, person to person. After shots, I'll remember sight picture, sight picture recovery, trigger control, but not 10mm recoil.

 

[eldon519]

And the rest of the quote iterates what others have been saying:
"the problem is that there are very few such loads available and they are more suited to SMG platforms than handguns due to increased recoil issues."

Everyone on the internet is the exception when it comes to recoil and follow-up shots. Yet if it weren't an issue, competitions wouldn't set power factor minimums. The FBI's notes on training was that agents firing .40 missed more often and had slower follow-up shots than those using 9mm, and cops miss about 70-80% of their shots in a OIS. But that will never be any of us internet goers. We will all fire once with final accuracy and end it then and there.

 

[CDW4ME]

Here is a "nuclear" load that produces a tolerable (to me) calculated recoil (PF).
Underwood 135 Nosler 1,594 fps / 767# KE / PF 215 (similar PF to 45 acp Ranger T 230)
Penetration at 10.5 -11'' after 4 layer denim is on the shallow end, but I imagine it would be quite effective on a frontal shot (expansion to .68)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGQgnlPlb0

OP in regard to the 135 Nosler, here is a thread where that bullet was used to kill a whitetail deer, post #48 & 49
http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/official-10mmauto-deer-hunt-story-thread.1373461/page-3

For those that think KE doesn't matter at handgun velocities (that there is no effect from temporary cavity at handgun velocities) don't let obvious tissue damage beyond the diameter of the bullet influence your opinion, be resolute.