Best 10mm defensive load?

[harrygunner]

'eldon519' Today, a few years after the Gary Roberts quote, ammo is available. I have about 3000 rounds of fast, 200gr 10mm ammo. Clearly available now. Have them in my carry gun. And I'm not bothered by the recoil.

But, I'm certainly not implying you should use them. That's an individual choice. Just providing info.

 

[PabloJ]

For many years the word on the internet was the the best 10mm factory round for defensive use was the Winchester 175 grain Silvertip. I know it's one of the ones that was always loaded to utilize the full velocity potential of the round.

Who else is currently making a JHP round that isn't just a fancy 40 S&W in terms of velocity? Finding the Silvertip these days is becoming an exercise inn patience.

From all I tried I would rate HPR 180gr JHPs (Hornady XTP? bullets) as the best. It was best blend of power, accuracy and low flash signature. The SIG SAUER JHP ammo looks interesting, but I haven't tried it because I dumped the 10mm guns before that ammo became available.

 

[Elkins45]

Hence why the FBI recently selected the 9mm 147 as their round of choice, a round which is consistently at the bottom of the heap for KE figures in semiautomatic service rounds. And I'm willing to bet their testing budget and database of OIS reports is a tad bigger than yours. I know it is hard to fathom, but their opinion might be more informed than yours.

Your assertion that the FBI's selection was based on ballistic performance alone is naive. I don't think I know more about ballistics than the FBI, but I don't think the FBI uses much ballistic information to make political decisions---and which gun and cartridge they select, and which ammo they buy are indeed political decisions.

 

[RX-79G]

Your assertion that the FBI's selection was based on ballistic performance alone is naive. I don't think I know more about ballistics than the FBI, but I don't think the FBI uses much ballistic information to make political decisions---and which gun and cartridge they select, and which ammo they buy are indeed political decisions.

That's nonsense. Their studies are published and are based on science. There is nothing political about a caliber - especially between 147 vs 124gr. 9mm.

 

[Elkins45]

That's nonsense. Their studies are published and are based on science. There is nothing political about a caliber - especially between 147 vs 124gr. 9mm.

You do realize you are talking about an agency that issued 357 magnum revolvers but required special permission to be granted before loading them with anything other than 38 specials?

 

[RX-79G]

You do realize you are talking about an agency that issued 357 magnum revolvers but required special permission to be granted before loading them with anything other than 38 specials?

40 years ago? Why not talk about Hoover's dress collection?



The FBI's tests match other scientific tests and were conducted under the same protocols.

 

[Elkins45]

40 years ago? Why not talk about Hoover's dress collection?



The FBI's tests match other scientific tests and were conducted under the same protocols.

Are these the same protocols that selected the 1076, and then the Glock 23, and now the Glock 19?

Pretty indecisive protocols, don't you think?

Look, I'm not arguing just for the sake of it. I understand your point. I just don't think the difference in bullet construction is all that significant for a 200 fps velocity increase. Unquestionably bullet design has evolved, but they haven't reached the point where every single projectile behaves exactly as a very narrow set of design parameters would hope.

 

[eldon519]

Again there you go putting words in my mouth and attacking arguments I didn't make. I didn't say it was ballistics alone. I also mentioned that one of the FBI's justifications was that they noted that officers miss about 70-80% of their shots in OISs, and in testing they found officers/agents were able to place shots more accurately and rapidly with the 9mm. However, it doesn't hurt that there are lots of 9mm rounds these days that demonstrate excellent performance shooting through a variety of barriers.

Terminal ballistics is only part of the equation. If this was some kind of 1700s duel where you drew and fired one shot, it would be a lot more important. However, there is nothing "terminal" about a miss, and that is what happens more often than not based on data from actual shootings.

 

[gotboostvr]

I've been following this thread and wanted to do a little investing of my own. I have no 10mm's but have always had an intrest, especially now that 10mm seems to be having a bit of a resurgence.

I've always been a fan of Hornaday XTP's and checked the 155gr and 180gr bullets on their handy reference chart as to what velocities they're designed for and compared them to what velocities Underwood loads them to.

I know that a good bullet is only good if it's operating within its design envelope and that 10mm has suffered with regards to that fact.

The bad news: Underwood seems to load the 155gr Hornaday XTP to 1500fps, despite its only designed to properly expand up to 1300fps. Over expansion, shallow penetration and shedding of its petals can almost be expected operating that far out of its design. I would not use this ammo for anything other than very light skinned game. Coyotes and paper punching seem to be its intention.

The good news:
They load the 180gr bullet to 1300fps, and that's well within its 1450fps ceiling. This should be a very good performing load for medium sized targets. Deer, hog and two legged predators. This is a load I would carry if I was in the 10mm game.

Just like all calibers and cartridges, proper load selection is a very careful balance of the right bullet at the right velocity and that seems a bit more tricky with 10mm than most.

 

[RX-79G]

Are these the same protocols that selected the 1076, and then the Glock 23, and now the Glock 19?

Pretty indecisive protocols, don't you think?

Look, I'm not arguing just for the sake of it. I understand your point. I just don't think the difference in bullet construction is all that significant for a 200 fps velocity increase. Unquestionably bullet design has evolved, but they haven't reached the point where every single projectile behaves exactly as a very narrow set of design parameters would hope.

The FBI went with 10mm because the best 9mm in the mid-'80s was Silver Tips, and they tend to come apart. The FBI went to .40 because it better met their needs than 10mm, and .40 didn't exist when they chose 10mm. The FBI went to bonded core 9mm bullets when they got good enough, but bonded core 9mm bullets didn't exist when they dropped 9mm back in the '80s. So that isn't indecisive at all.

And if 200 fps doesn't matter, than you can explain why ammo makers make bullets specifically for .357 SIG instead of just using 9mm bullets, and don't use 9mm bullets to load .380. "Only 200 fps" is 10-20% of total velocity.

 

[Elkins45]

The FBI went with 10mm because the best 9mm in the mid-'80s was Silver Tips, and they tend to come apart. The FBI went to .40 because it better met their needs than 10mm, and .40 didn't exist when they chose 10mm. The FBI went to bonded core 9mm bullets when they got good enough, but bonded core 9mm bullets didn't exist when they dropped 9mm back in the '80s. So that isn't indecisive at all.

And if 200 fps doesn't matter, than you can explain why ammo makers make bullets specifically for .357 SIG instead of just using 9mm bullets, and don't use 9mm bullets to load .380. "Only 200 fps" is 10-20% of total velocity.

Didn't say it doesn't matter, said it doesn't matter that much, especially when you're still within the stated design envelope of the bullet.

Terminal performance is probably a design consideration of 357 Sig bullets, but it takes a distant back seat to case neck tension. A normal ogive 9mm bullet can set back on feeding much easier than one designed with straight sides.

 

[RX-79G]

Speer makes a different .40 bullet just for loading in their Short Barrel ammunition. Are you sure a little velocity doesn't matter?

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

 

[Elkins45]

You seem to think bullet design and construction is an absolute and exact science--so exact that a 50-100 fps difference (which might be the variability from a fast gun to a slow gun, or barrel length differences) makes a bullet totally fragment or drive through like an FMJ. What if it passes through a heavy coat and loses some velocity. Whoops, need a different bullet now. You make it sound like I need to swap out mags for fat guys in coats vs skinny guys in T shirts, or if my barrel is a little shorter than the one the round was tested in.

Does the Speer short barrel ammo have a warning not to use it in longer barrels because the bullet will under penetrate?

I prefer a round that expands and penetrates, and has enough extra oomph to make sure it does so if I'm being attacked by a linebacker-type. We disagree---that's OK. But let's be clear that your contribution to this thread has mostly been to tell me why I shouldn't want the 10mm loads I asked about . Fine. Seems to me your work here is done.

 

[RX-79G]

The difference in velocity between Speer's Gold Dot 165 .40 load and the Underwood 10mm load with the same bullet is 250 fps.