Best AK47?

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SamlautRanger

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Looking for a really good AK 47. Want a traditional style with wood furniture. I know that Arsenal makes really good ones, but they are not producing them with the wooden stocks anymore and even the ones with synthetic stocks are not in stock at this moment.

So who also makes a top rate quality AK47, with wooden stock, that is availiable for purchase? Thanks.
 
I've never seen a VEPR in wood though. I have an issue of Shotgun News with reviews on the Bulgarian Arsenals that says they do produce a model with a milled receiver and wood furniture, but that might have been a limited production run and they could be out of them. Your information might be more recent/reliable. You could always pick up an Arsenal then shop around for a set of good condition wood furniture. Or you could look around for a Mak 90 or SAR1--you see a lot of those with wood furniture.
 
Vepr is my favorite, but certainly not traditional.

I would take a look at Vector. Their AKs are high quality and they do excellent work. Also they have wood stocks.
 
I'm not knocking the AK here.

But isn't asking what the best AK is sort of like asking what the best fast-food hamburger is?

While there may be some minute differences between fast-food burgers, when you come right down to it, fast-food burgers are pretty much fast-food burgers, and will never, ever be fillet mignon, no matter how you dress them up?

I suppose I'm asking is there really that much difference between Romanian SAR variants for less than $300 and the VEPRs to justify the difference in price?

And I like AKs. I've owned a MAK-90 before.

I think every gun owner should have at least one AK clone somewhere and at some time.

I'm just wondering if "the best" AK, whatever that is, is actually worth the extra dollars it will cost?

Won't you still have a rock solid reliable, but not very accurate semi-auto rifle?

hillbilly
 
In AK47s I have used overseas, I have seen big differences in the accuracy and quality. There are differences in Chines, Egypt, Russian, Bulgarian, etc.. manufactures. Just as not al 1911 are the same. I have had good AKs and bad AKs.

I want an AK now here in the USA for training, and want a good quality one with wood furniture. Don't mind the cost, quality comes first. Some of the romanian AKs that are bough here, I have heard alot of complaint about them for example.
 
But isn't asking what the best AK is sort of like asking what the best fast-food hamburger is?
Click to expand...

Maybe, but there's still a world of difference between a slider from White Castle and a Black Angus from Backyard Burgers. Yes, they're both hamburgers from fast food joints, but that's about where the similarities end.

I've got an Arsenal SA M-7S. It's a fine rifle. Fit and finish are excellent -- comparable to my DSA SA58 and to my PTR-91 from JLD Enterprises. I can't say that about any other AK clone. There are plenty of AK clones that are just plain ugly, and believe it or not, a lot of them don't work very well. They can be unreliable, suffer from horrible trigger slap, etc. There are also accuracy differences. My Arsenal is not gonna win any high power matches, but it will keep them all in a 6 inch circle at 100 yards with no effort at all.
 
Father Knows Best....that sounds like the MAK-90 I used to own.

Granted, the fit and finish on my MAK-90 wasn't the best.....it had the blonde Chinese "mystery wood" thumbhole stock on it.

But it was 100% reliable and ate every kind of ammo I put through it, including that East German practice ammo that had thin metal jackets over lightweight plastic cores.

I mean I saw SKS rifles that would jam with that East German plastic practice stuff, but my MAK-90 never missed a beat.

Unfortunately, some knuckle-dragging livestock rapist stole it from me a few years back.

I wish I had it back.

The only thing that I didn't like about the rifle was the size of its groups off a bench at 100 yards. They were right around 6 to 8 inches, depending on what ammo I used.

hillbilly
 
The MAK-90 is one of the better AK-style rifles out there. There are lots of them that are much worse from a functional standpoint. MAK-90's now command a premium around here (Memphis) because they are so much better than 90% of the junk that is currently being imported.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the AK's reputation for poor accuracy can be traced to ammunition. There isn't much (any?) match grade 7.62x39 ammo floating around. If you handload, you can reduce group sizes a LOT.
 
hillbilly

The comparrison has already been made between the AK and the 1911 and I think it is fair. There can be a world of difference between each of them. Compare a WASR to a high end Arsenal or Krebs and you have to notice it. The WASR is like the Springfield MilSpec of the AK world--decent from the box but really coming into its own as a learner peice for those who want to learn the operating system and customize it to meet their needs. Or you can go all the way up to the Krebs which is like a fine Wilson Combat or Les Baer auto. The Krebs is an awesome rifle fully capable of matching all the neat trinkets of the uber-tactical M4s and 2 MOA accuracy while maintaining a reputation for reliability that Stoners design can only dream of.

In short, yes, the differences in price are indicative of rifle quality and features that can be worlds apart.
 
If you think there's no difference between AK's enough to justify the expense of a VEPR to a SAR-1, go shoot one, and it'll make you a true believer.

Without a doubt in my mind, the VEPR is one of the finest semi-auto rifles made, not just AK's.
 
I also go for the MAK 90, got one for a very reasonable price last year, the damn thing just won't not shoot. I don't abuse it, but it goes places where I'd never take my AR or FAL (or 30-30 for that matter), and gets less care. Its my kayak/canoe/truck/swamp/whatever gun. Trigger is excellent, sights functional, accuracy up to 150 yds which is the longest distance I've shot at anything with it has been excellent. Fit and finish, is also good. When I skin it up I just repaint with krylon. I empty a magazine through it every month or two and it has never malfunctioned in any way.

rk
 
hillbilly, yes, there is that much difference. Many of the AKs out there give the AK a bad name amongst Americans. The Vepr is a 2 MOA or better gun. I've seen well put together .223 AKs do that as well.
 
So how about these Krebs Ak 47s ?? Seem good as well.

Called Arsenal and they are not making any more wooden stock AKs.

And as for fixed sythetic stock AKs, they are out and their only distributor Lew Horton is out and the will not be making any more until after end of year.
The only ones available from arsenal at this time are the ones with the fold under stock (which I cannot stand).

So it looks like if I want a AK it is either Krebs or Vepr. But they do not come in wooden stock traditional. So still looking.
 
I read somewhere once that Kalshnikov himself considered the Bulgarian AK's as being the best.
 
Also, keep in mind that a lot of the AK's reputation for poor accuracy can be traced to ammunition.
Click to expand...
Poor ammo, and poor sights. With just a 1x red dot the groups out of my SAR went from 6-8 inches at 100 yards, to under an inch at 60-70. Thats a big big difference.

With similar AKs but different price levels you're usually going to pay for one thing, better fit and finish. Yes, the romanian AKs have some problems (canted sight blocks on SARs and WASRs, and mag fit issues on WASRs) but if you get a straight SAR for example, it can be as reliable and accurate as anything else out there. I'll take a nice SAR over a vector any day of the week (unless you let me sell the vector to make some money). The SAR has basically a real military AKM receiver, while the vectors are built on US receivers.

Dont get me wrong, US receivers can make fine weapons, and i own one. I would only get one though if 1) it was impossible to get a certain rifle from a factory, 2) it was possible to get but a lot more expensive, or 3) i wanted a better finish.

In short, if you really want the 'best' get an arsenal (or vepr, but i dont like the non-standard parts and looks), but a cheap SAR will likely serve you just as well. It just wont be as nice looking while doing it.
 
Don't forget Vector arms. They are quality and have wood stocks.
 
SR,

Are you talking about Arsenal, Inc. or Arsenal, USA? (Both Bulgarian, I think).

I can very much vouch for the Arsenal, Inc. AKs. Very good quality. I'm very surprised that they only sell through Lew Horton. That doesn't make sense, since they have a pretty large line.

I can also vouch for the VEPRs and Krebs. My Krebs VEPR (KTR-03), is superb, with AR-15/A2-type sights. They are barrel-heavy, though, but just about indestructable. They are not traditional, though.

I'm sure Krebs AK-103/Saiga based AKs are good, as well. (If he has any left.)

Just my .02
 
Here's something else I thought twice about throwing in, but I'm going to write it anyway.

I appreciate all the feedback from the AK fans.

And understand, I'm an AK fan myself.

Not only did I used to own an MAK-90 until it was stolen from me, it was the very first centerfire rifle that I bought for myself.

That being said, here's what's really at the heart of my questions.

According to my personal experience, and what's been said on this thread, AK clones are rugged and reliable, but suffer from sub-par accuracy.

It is not unusual for a brand new AK to print "groups" up to 8 inches in diameter at 100 yards.

To get a much better AK that prints about 2 inches at 100 yards, we have to spend a big chunk of change for a Krebs or Arsenal or VEPR.

I appreciate the ruggedness and reliability of the AK.

But either one of the Franken AR-15s I built from stripped recievers and parts kits did a lot better than 2 MOA at 100 yards, even with lousy surplus ammo.

My FAL built from a parts kit does better than most AKs at 100 yards, and about as well as the "best" AKs, and the .308 is a lot more potent than the 7.62X39 and has a lot more reach.

I have an SKS-M that takes AK mags that does as well as or better at 100 yards than the "best" AKs out there, and my SKS-M cost only $250, including shipping and FFL transfer fees.

I've frequently heard Mini-14s being pilloried as lousy rifles, mainly because they are about as accurate as most AKs at 100 yards.

I just find it hard to spend that kind of money to get the "best" AK available, where there are plenty of other alternatives that do the same thing, accuracy-wise, for less, and even other alternatives that will do the same and even more for equal amounts of cash.

And before I get avalanched with a load of "oh yeah, but what about RELIABILITY???" posts, I suggest that you go over to FalFiles.com, and do a search for "Ol Dirty."


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68486&highlight=Ol+Dirty


And here's one about an SKS, too.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=98311&highlight=Ol+Dirty
 
To get a much better AK that prints about 2 inches at 100 yards, we have to spend a big chunk of change for a Krebs or Arsenal or VEPR.
Click to expand...

I think you are over-estimating the cost of a good AK clone. A cheap AK clone can be had new for around $300. A great one (Arsenal, VEPR, etc.) will run perhaps twice that if you buy new (there was recently a group buy on new VEPRs with the entry price right around $500). It's awful hard to touch those prices in other platforms like the AR, FAL, G3, etc. Sure, you can get an AR for $600, but it's nowhere near one of the best.

Also, I rarely buy new guns. My PTR-91, SA58 Para Congo and Arsenal SA M-7S were all bought in used but like new condition. I paid substantially less than the new retail price. Of those three guns, the Arsenal was by far the cheapest. I paid $395 for it, which was the asking price at the gun shop I found it in. If I'd dickered, or bought it from a private party, the price almost certainly would have been a lot less.

Is it worth the price? I certainly think so. The Arsenal's fit and finish are just as good as the more expensive SA58 and PTR-91. It has the best trigger of the three, by far. It is the lightest and handiest. It is the easiest of the three to shoot, with almost no recoil. I also put a real nifty Russian Kobra holographic red dot on it for only $190, including the mount. Total cost of the rifle, premium optics and mount was less than $600. Ammo is dirt cheap. Spare mags are plentiful and inexpensive. In other words, I don't care if it can't shoot sub-MOA. I haven't tried to measure group sizes at 100 yards with my Arsenal, because that's not why I bought it and that's not how I use it. It's plenty accurate for my purposes.

Of course, I have the luxury of owning all three of those fine rifles. I like all of them. If I could have had just one, it would be difficult to choose, but I'd probably keep the Arsenal. The Arsenal was cheapest to buy and is the cheapest to feed, and in many ways is the most fun to shoot. It is obviously a high quality firearm that I can take pride in owning and shooting. That's good enough for me.
 
hillbilly, IMO the AKs reputation for poor accuracy is somewhat undeserved, and is a byproduct of the bad sights. As i mentioned above, with just a 1x red dot my groups shrank from 6-8 inches at 100 yards, to under an inch at 60-70 yards. Thats a huge difference. The rifle was a SAR.

Is it an exception to the rule? Maybe, maybe not. There arent that many guys with optics on their AKs, but if I hadnt put one on I'd be another guy saying my SAR wont group better than 6-8 inches at 100 yards.

That was a big reason I sold my MAK-90 and bought a SAR, I wanted an optics rail.
 
hillbilly pt II

My brother and I each bought Romanian WASRs right before the AWB ended "just in case." We paid $320 for them, NIB, shipped to our FFL, and out the door. Each rifle came with a target labeled the weapon's serial number depicting a 5 shot group of about 5 inches. Each of these rifles had to crude sights the AK is known for and each had a painful amount of trigger slap. $35 from Midway for a Mojo ghost ring rear sight and 10 min to install solved the first problem and improved the sight picture dramatically. Thirty minutes with a Dremel and the proper instructions eliminated the trigger slap and gave the rifles if not a match grade trigger, certainly a serviceable one breaking clean at about 4 pounds. A $20 M249 grip made the rifle a little bit more comfortable for me. In total I've spent under $400 on this rifle. With Wolf ammo in the sitting position, I can and have shot apart gallon jugs at 150 yards and from the kneeling position shooting a little faster managed 16 out of 30 on a human silloette target at 200 yards, which isn't bad for me. A double tap aimed at the head at 50 yards yeiled two perfectly centered holes in the face seperated by about 4 inches. Bottom line, this rifle is accurate enough to do just about anything I want to do with it, and pretty much anything the cartridge is capable of doing.
 
Here is another reason why I want a high quality AK as opposed to a M4 (which I already have) or a FAL.

I am buying one because I want to train with it. I use an AK overseas. Now most of the AKs I use overseas are in pretty poor condition, but if I am going to have one of my own, I want a really good one-and I can still practice the various manual of arms of an AK with it.

BTW, since it seems hard to get a hold of an Arsenal Inc. one, as they are out of stock. I have decided to go ahead a get a Krebs SLR-103. Guess I will have to be satified with sythetic stock and can later get wood for it maybe. Talked with Marc at Krebs yesterday, the owner, and all I can say is I got a real good feeling talking with him. Great customer service and answers to my questions. When I called Arsenal they acted as if I was bothering them.
 
Hillbilly, a really good AK can hang in there pretty darn well. Here are the results from our annual rifle match. 3gun style, CQB to 200 yards.

www.udpl.net/results/2005/Rifle-CarbineResultsByTime5-28-05.pdf

I used a 7.62x39 Vepr. All the other guys up there used an AR of some kind. And these are some excellent shooters. I don't feel particularly undergunned. And I could use about whatever I wanted. I just enjoy playing gun games with my "commie" gun.

At our last 3gun, I was 5th overall. And I choked with a pistol. The only reason I hung in there was because there were some difficult rifle targets. 6 inch plates at 114 yards. 8 hits required. I did it in 9 shots, quick. 6 inches may sound big, but that is only if you are thinking in terms of sitting on a bench, shooting at a known range, instead of hoofing it across the desert and using an improvised rest. When the heart is racing, and you are looking for those little buggers out in the sage brush, 6 inches is pretty small. :)

I feel perfectly adequate with my AK, thanks.
 
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