Best ammo for 9mm carbines?

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lemaymiami

lemaymiami

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I have a pretty good idea of what to feed a 9mm pistol for defensive work (Gold Dot 124 gr. +P) but with the rise of decent 9mm carbines (the current Ruger would be my choice...) does anyone have into or a link to info of how modern +P ammo actually works in longer barrels? I'll be interested in what folks that actually use them have to say about the difference in results between pistol length barrels and longer carbine barrels for defensive purposes, thanks.
 
The principle is quite simple. You're gaining a substantial amount of V0, from around 200 all the way to 400fps. The bullet needs to be somewhat tougher. I've hunted with a 9mm carbine (as well as a number of revolver caliber long guns) and while there isn't that much information about the terminal ballistics of different bullet at higher velocities, a simple wet phonebook test will give you some idea how the round performs in real life. Penetration is rarely increased but fragmentation can be rather violent.

I don't have any extensive data but Winchester SXT, for example, seems to work nicely at higher velocities too.
 
I don't have a carbine, but I would suggest trying loads with tough bullets that marginally expand and pentrate very deep in gel from pistol barrels.
 
Heavier bullets in 147s tend to hold together better.
The 115s can fragment excessively when pushed beyond their design velocities.
A bonded bullet tends to stick together a bit better.
Denis
 
You have to remember that the carbines are blow back and the bolt travel will be at a higher speed. This could cause the gun to beat itself up.
I have a 9mm carbine and pistol , and have found that 124 gr works best in them.
 
I have the IMI 115 gr HP in my Ruger PCC. My rationale is that:

1) While I have found expansion to be "iffy" in my pistols, it will probably do better with a little more velocity;
2) It is what the IDF uses (or at least that is the claim); and
3) I have a bunch of it that I bought cheap.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
You have to remember that the carbines are blow back and the bolt travel will be at a higher speed. This could cause the gun to beat itself up.
I have a 9mm carbine and pistol , and have found that 124 gr works best in them.
Click to expand...
Gunny, are you using 9mm on duty? If so, are you carrying the same ammo in both your duty gun(s) as well as for personal protection off duty? My assumption (yes, I know) is that you are issued ammo for work.
 
Gunny, your appreciation of the cycling mechanics involved are definitely something to consider (and I have no idea whether +P rounds are worth having in a carbine at all..).

What I'm mostly concerned with is how a round that's been developed for a modern handgun will actually perform as it penetrates from a carbine - all the way to it's terminal end, so gel tests will be the only means I know of to measure ... In police work years ago (I've been out of the game for over 22 years now...) most of us came to the conclusion that the heaviest round that penetrated deeply with controlled expansion was the choice for street work -regardless of velocity, etc. Back then you never saw 9mm in 147grain (complicating that is that every 147 grain 9mm round I've reviewed is listed as sub sonic -and that's not likely to benefit from any longer barrel at all). On the street in my era many preferred the .45 (which was never found to have expanded much at all when recovered during subsequent autopsies in my area.. no matter whether hollow point or not...but it still did the job every time). For me it was the .40 - again in the heaviest round I could find....

I'll be looking forward to any published comparison testing of the various 9mm ammo - particularly from a carbine length barrel.. I suspect that rounds meant to expand from a handgun might not hold together enough to achieve good penetration from a carbine.

One of the lessons I learned on the street ( I was actually working the day that infamous FBI - Miami shootout occurred) is that a handgun is what you use when you couldn't get access to something better... If my opponent is at longer handgun ranges (say 25 to 50 meters...) I want a long gun -and a carbine should fill the bill here in urban/suburban terrain... For ranges under 25 meters it's a toss up - but under 15 meters I'll prefer a shotgun every time - for that once in a lifetime situation...
 
In water-jugging with a couple 9mm carbines, I found the performance results I mentioned above.

Water jugs are not directly relatable to human bodies, but still...
Denis
 
lemaymiami said:
every 147 grain 9mm round I've reviewed is listed as sub sonic -and that's not likely to benefit from any longer barrel at all).
Click to expand...
They're still comparatively slow, but from a 10½" carbine barrel most of them are supersonic. I haven't chronyed the current offerings but the supersonic crack is unmistakable. Hunting season is still couple of months away but I might be able to buy/load a few different brands of 9mm JHP/JSP ammo/bullets, dig out the bullets (unless they pass right through), take some photos and measure residual weight of what's left of them.

Not very scientific compared to ballistic gel tests, but an option nevertheless.
 
Scroll down a little on this chart and they give you the velocities of the same bullet as the barrel length increases. It's a dramatic increase, like 500 fps. The chart I'm using is Buffalo Bore's, whatever powder mix they use certainly seems to work well out of a longer barrel.

Fast powders burn themselves all up before the bullet leaves a longer barrel, slower powders are still burning before a bullet leaves a short barrel. They seem to have an ideal mix that works well on both short and long.

Their 158g. .357 is moving at 2150fps when it leaves an 18 1/2" barrel, darn close to .30-30 specs.

Here's their charts: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102
 
I loaded up some 147 grain FMJ's for my Camp 9 using AA No 7. I have a nice recoil buffer installed as well as a heavier recoil spring. It works. As for how it would work against a target that is living? Not sure about that one. I guess if I wanted, I could have used different bullets. As for factory ammo, Gunny's recommendation is as good as any.
 
The only one I have any experience with (outside of various SMG's I used in the mil) was a 9mm AR Rock River. It functioned very well with 9mm NATO, but choked often with 115 grain ball like fiochi and PMC- typical economy priced 9mm ammo one would be inclined to buy for such a gun for range play. It did function quite well with the +P HP ammo from Winchester that said "law enforcement use". As for the previously mentioned SMG's, we used the US mil NATO 9mm.
 
The design of the PCC plays into it too. Some that I've fired, like the Uzi and AUG 9mmP conversion really just don't run well on American 9mmP loads, they prefer European loaded ammo or American +P loads.

If you're using a carbine for serious work you want to make sure it's 100% reliable with the ammo you'll be using.

BSW
 
I wanted a 9mm carbine, and ultimately settled on a 4inch barreled AR with a brace and use it for plinking and as a suppressor host. 16 inches is past the point of diminishing returns where most 9mm bullets are slowing down. So I went with an AR with a brace to get something shorter. 9mm ARs seem to grow more finicky as the barrels get longer. With my set up I'd happily use your 124 Gold Dots, or the equivalent from Federal.

After lots of trial and error, I ultimately concluded that if you want to use a carbine for "serious" work -- shoot carbine bullets like .223 or 7.62x39. A 124 gr. at ~ 2,200 fps smokes anything a 9mm can do. It also does it more reliably. 9mm carbines can work, but they involve lots of tinkering and trade-offs and ultimately don't do anything much better than a good service pistol. If you are going to have a full sized carbine, shoot full size bullets.
 
Sebastian the Ibis said:
I wanted a 9mm carbine, and ultimately settled on a 4inch barreled AR with a brace and use it for plinking and as a suppressor host. 16 inches is past the point of diminishing returns where most 9mm bullets are slowing down. So I went with an AR with a brace to get something shorter. 9mm ARs seem to grow more finicky as the barrels get longer. With my set up I'd happily use your 124 Gold Dots, or the equivalent from Federal.

After lots of trial and error, I ultimately concluded that if you want to use a carbine for "serious" work -- shoot carbine bullets like .223 or 7.62x39. A 124 gr. at ~ 2,200 fps smokes anything a 9mm can do. It also does it more reliably. 9mm carbines can work, but they involve lots of tinkering and trade-offs and ultimately don't do anything much better than a good service pistol. If you are going to have a full sized carbine, shoot full size bullets.
Click to expand...

I came to the same conclusion. A 9mm AR feels and handles pretty much like a 223 AR. I love my new Ruger PC 9mm, but as a fun range toy to shoot cheap reloads and to get dual duty from my magazines.
 
Sebastian the Ibis said:
I wanted a 9mm carbine, and ultimately settled on a 4inch barreled AR with a brace and use it for plinking and as a suppressor host. 16 inches is past the point of diminishing returns where most 9mm bullets are slowing down. So I went with an AR with a brace to get something shorter. 9mm ARs seem to grow more finicky as the barrels get longer. With my set up I'd happily use your 124 Gold Dots, or the equivalent from Federal.

After lots of trial and error, I ultimately concluded that if you want to use a carbine for "serious" work -- shoot carbine bullets like .223 or 7.62x39. A 124 gr. at ~ 2,200 fps smokes anything a 9mm can do. It also does it more reliably. 9mm carbines can work, but they involve lots of tinkering and trade-offs and ultimately don't do anything much better than a good service pistol. If you are going to have a full sized carbine, shoot full size bullets.
Click to expand...

4" barrel? Or, did you mean 14" ?
 
The thing about a 9mm carbine is its reduced muzzle blast & sound signature, and it's quite adequate for effective use out to 50 yards, well beyond the ability of most handgunners to effectively engage as accurately.

I have a very lightweight Beretta Storm with upgraded internals & a double-mag pouch on the stock.
Over 45 rounds on a very lightweight grab'n-go that won't blow my ear drums out indoors & can engage reliably to at least 50 yards, with the right bullet.

I can also fire it with either hand if necessary, something I can't do with the 9mm AR I also experimented with.
Or any .223 AR I own.

The 9mm carbine DOES have a place.
Denis
 
Did a bit of scouting over on YouTube and found that 98% of all the gel tests of 9mm ammo were done using pistols (hopefully that will change...). Here is the one video that was direct and to the point -with very mixed results (the round tested a 124 +P Federal) did not hold together and failed to penetrate sufficiently but that same round fired through four layers of denim - performed perfectly... a definite puzzler... At any rate here it is (if I've copied the link properly)...
https://binged.it/2zamKZ0

This was the exact issue I was concerned about if going to quality defensive 9mm rounds with a carbine...
 
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