Best bolt action military rifle...ever.

[Shanghai McCoy]

None of these old 5-shot Mil bolts can beat a well-greased M1 Garand.

Maybe so, but I remember stories of British troops winning bets against US troops betting they could get 10 rounds off quicker than a Garand.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Mas 36,


The SMLE had adjustable sights until wartime production expediency made them go away.

The particularly vexing thing about the Mas36 sights are that the adjustment is made with removable inserts that are only available from an armorer as fitted to an individual rifle. 70 years on, this supply is difficult to source which might really make things difficult if you have to disassemble the rifle for some reason. Enfields and others can be dismounted from their stock if necessary and adjusted (also if necessary) more readily. This doesn’t really effect the system as-issued but it’s a very relevant factor in civilian ownership decades down the road without the benefit of an army supply system.

This is also a big factor (IMO) in why the Mannlichers and Carcanos are historically unpopular with civilian shooters. They’re not bad guns, but anything that won’t function without a separate proprietary clip that’s easily lost or damaged is not going to be anyone’s first choice. The Garand is only exempt from this because it’s something like a national hero, and also clips have been historically produced in such numbers that they’ve never been hard to come by in the US.

I note nobody in this thread has gone to bat for the Mannlicher (either Dutch or Austrian style) or the Berthier. (Looks like there are a couple of votes for the Carcano -Ian McCollum fans, perhaps?)

But, none of them (bar the AK) had a means to adjust elevation, other that changing the front sight blade. The SMLE was more inline with American thinking, but was a short lived idea, as the proposed P-13 and all later variants also omitted windage.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I note nobody in this thread has gone to bat for the Mannlicher (either Dutch or Austrian style) or the Berthier. (Looks like there are a couple of votes for the Carcano -Ian McCollum fans, perhaps?)

I've got examples of the Mannlicher 95/30 Stutzen and the Berthier M. 16.
I'm not going to bat for them either.
Dad kept us in fried squirrel with a Carcano M. 38 back in the bad old days. I'm not going to bad-mouth them.

 

[Mosin77]

But, none of them (bar the AK) had a means to adjust elevation, other that changing the front sight blade. The SMLE was more inline with American thinking, but was a short lived idea, as the proposed P-13 and all later variants also omitted windage.

I think all of them except the fixed sight Carcano M38 and some later war Arisaka Type 99s had elevation adjustments for shooting at range. It was only windage that was typically non adjustable. This was a decisive factor in the U.S. choosing to retain the 1903 vs the 1917. The 1917 had no windage adjustment which was felt to be a significant handicap on the target range.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I don't mean the ramp that goes from 100 to 2600 meters (or yards), I mean the ability to make the point of impact at 200 meters (or yards) the same as the point of aim.

To "zero" an M1903, No. 4, or any of the other ones I mentioned, the factory shot a group at 100 or 200 yards and replaced the front sight with a taller or shorter one until the center of the group was centered on the point of aim.

 

[tark]

Mauser..........specifically the 1909 Argentine Mausers.

When was the last time the Argentinians were in a war using bolt action rifles? Read requirement # 6

 

[lysanderxiii]

When was the last time the Argentinians were in a war using bolt action rifles? Read requirement # 6

Contrary to Wikipedia, the Argentine 1909 Mauser saw quite a bit of combat:

Patagonia Rebelde (1920-22)
1930 Coupe d'état (1930)
Chacos War (1932-35)
Radical Revolution (1932)
1943 Coupe d'état (1943)
Liberating Revolution (1955-58)
Peronist Resistance (1959-63)
1963 Navy Revolt (1963)
Guevarist Incursion (1963-64)
Nazi Insurgency (1963-66)

 

[Jim Watson]

Should we consider the Madsen 1947, the last new design bolt action infantry rifle?
A predictable flop in the sea of WWII surplus small arms.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Should we consider the Madsen 1947, the last new design bolt action infantry rifle?
A predictable flop in the sea of WWII surplus small arms.

I think rule #6 applies here.

 

[Jim Watson]

The only sale Madsen made was to Colombia who had a long running civil war, 1958-1968.
Maybe they shot at each other with the M47s before selling them surplus to Us Gringos.
But the only Madsens I ever saw were in pristine condition, so maybe not.

I don't consider them superior weapons, anyhow. The split bridge and forward bolt handle were definite anachronisms, even though the standard muzzle brake and recoil pad were neat.

 

[dogtown tom]

When was the last time the Argentinians were in a war using bolt action rifles? Read requirement # 6

Where does Rule #6 say it has to be the country that bought/originally issued the rifle?
Service history
In service 1905-1960s
Used by Argentina, Paraguay, Dominican Republic
Wars United States occupation of the Dominican Republic (1916–1924), Chaco War, Colombia–Peru War, also called the Leticia War.

 

[tark]

Where does Rule #6 say it has to be the country that bought/originally issued the rifle?
Service history
In service 1905-1960s
Used by Argentina, Paraguay, Dominican Republic
Wars United States occupation of the Dominican Republic (1916–1924), Chaco War, Colombia–Peru War, also called the Leticia War.

Fair enough. OK, it's in. Tell me why is is better than an Arisaka or any of the other choices, other than the fact that it is prettier. It doesn't have the best sights, it is longer than it needs to be, it isn't the strongest action or the easiest to manufacture and many people consider the flag safeties on Mausers a pain in the ass. I am one of them. I find the type 99s safety far superior and easier to use. All it takes is a flick of the thumb. If one finds that difficult they must not have a thumb, I guess.

 

[Terry G]

Well, I have a Carcano Carbine, three Mauser knock off's M48. Yugoslavian and Turkish, and MKIII** and MKIV. The winner is the WWI snub nosed MKIII***. Fastest bolt action and slightly more accurate than any of the others. The Carcano was the best deal at $12.95.

 

[Jim Watson]

We could have had the All American Remington Lee instead of the side track to the Scandahoovian monstrosity and been about as well off as with a Mauser mutant.

 

[dogtown tom]

Fair enough. OK, it's in. Tell me why is is better than an Arisaka or any of the other choices, other than the fact that it is prettier.

Well, ask that of every country that adopted the Mauser design or copied it. Argentina just bought the only military version that came with a commercial floorplate.
Then ask all those countries that bought Mausers why they didn't buy the Arisaka.

It doesn't have the best sights

Yet worked just fine.

it is longer than it needs to be

Huh?
Rifle is 49"
Carbine is 41.5"
Nothing unusual there.

, it isn't the strongest action

Yet strong enough.

or the easiest to manufacture

Easy enough that Mauser built many millions more than Arisaka

and many people consider the flag safeties on Mausers a pain in the ass. I am one of them.
I find the type 99s safety far superior and easier to use.

I'll bet many of the men who carried it didn't have anything to compare to. It doesn't bother me at all.

 

[tark]

Then ask all those countries that bought Mausers why they didn't buy the Arisaka.

Don't think the Type 99 was ever offered for international sales. I may be wrong.

The rest of your points are certainly valid. I had a 1909 long ago. It was apparently brand new, and it came with a factory target. This was the early 80s. I paid the outrageous sum of $175 for the thing. It was one of the most accurate military rifles I ever owned, after my Ross Mk III. Of all of the rifles I have seen come and go in my life, that 1909 Argentine ranks at the top of the ones I shouldn't have let go.

And I have always wondered why; most every 1891 Argentine Mauser had its crest ground off... and the 1909s didn't. Has anyone out there ever seen a 1909 with a ground off crest?

 

[troy fairweather]

Don't think the Type 99 was ever offered for international sales. I may be wrong.

The rest of your points are certainly valid. I had a 1909 long ago. It was apparently brand new, and it came with a factory target. This was the early 80s. I paid the outrageous sum of $175 for the thing. It was one of the most accurate military rifles I ever owned, after my Ross Mk III. Of all of the rifles I have seen come and go in my life, that 1909 Argentine ranks at the top of the ones I shouldn't have let go.

And I have always wondered why; most every 1891 Argentine Mauser had its crest ground off... and the 1909s didn't. Has anyone out there ever seen a 1909 with a ground off crest?

I have a perfect crest on a 09 Unfortunately it was cut up for a sporter, it was a Engineers carbine which hurts more.

The 09s were used in the chaco war, think someone asked if they were used in war.
The 09s weren't ordered with the commercial bottoms, mauser ran out of military ones I think because they were doing guns for the Turks I think. So they gave the 09 the hinged bottoms at no cost.

 

[Mosin77]

I wish that the Arisaka had a cock-on-opening bolt. The Brits managed to get other details right and make cock-on-close a serious advantage for rapid fire with minimal sight picture disruption. But every other design doesn’t share those attributes and the guns feel less than great when manipulating the action, require extra force to be exerted right before you sight and fire. Which probably doesn’t matter a whit in combat, but as a civilian a hundred years later, makes me more reluctant to take one of the cock-on-close guns when I have a rare opportunity to go to the range.

Is there any speed advantage to the Arisaka over the other guns in this thread? (I know the Mosin isn’t going to win any speed competition…)

 

[valnar]

This is probably not in the spirit the OP intended, but wouldn't any modern bolt action sniper rifle used in the Gulf War qualify?

 

[jmorris]

Well, if it’s a Carcano it’s probably not a 7.35x51 version or it’s the best keep secret any military has ever kept.

 

[tark]

Is there any speed advantage to the Arisaka over the other guns in this thread?

I doubt it, but that would depend on the skill of the operator more than anything else. I'm thinking a Krag would probably be faster than any of them.

 

[lysanderxiii]

If we are going to talk about "the best" rifle, then the quality of it's manufacture has to be considered along with the specification stats . . . That is to say how they were when issued, not how they "could have been" or "would have been, if only . . . "

1) "Pretty" counts for NOTHING!! Cosmetic beauty is NOT to be mentioned or considered.

It should count if it effects functionality. The decidedly non-ascetic bolt handle of a Carcano makes working the action not near as slick as the very pleasingly shaped Enfield or Krag bolt. Similarly, the poor, some might even say crude, finish of most of the Type 99s, similarly takes its toll on efficiency. And what were they thinking with a 26 inch barrel?

 

[tark]

If we are going to talk about "the best" rifle, then the quality of it's manufacture has to be considered along with the specification stats . . . That is to say how they were when issued, not how they "could have been" or "would have been, if only . . . "



It should count if it effects functionality. The decidedly non-ascetic bolt handle of a Carcano makes working the action not near as slick as the very pleasingly shaped Enfield or Krag bolt. Similarly, the poor, some might even say crude, finish of most of the Type 99s, similarly takes its toll on efficiency. And what were they thinking with a 26 inch barrel?

OK, I'm scratching my head on this one. I have a substitute standard ( improperly called a "last ditch" ) type 99. It's about as cobby as they come but it is quite accurate and functions smoothly. I can't tell the difference from my 98 Mauser, insofar as feeding and ejecting rounds is concerned. Exactly how does a crude finish obstruct functionality?

The decidedly non-ascetic bolt handle of a Carcano makes working the action not near as slick as the very pleasingly shaped Enfield or Krag bolt.

You're comparing a rifle with a split bridge receiver to a pair of rifles with more conventional ( traditional? ) receivers. They feel different, at least to me. I have always found the bolts on split bridge receiver guns to be more awkward to use.

And I suppose that we should really call the type 38 and 99 rifles Nambu's because that's what they really are. Nariakiro Arisaka designed the type 30. Kijiro Nambu re-designed the type 30 and was the architect of the type 38. The 99 was an evolution of the 38. Everybody has been calling them "Arisaka"s through the years when they really aren't. Just like an MP-40 isn't really a Schmeisser.

And what were they thinking with a 26 inch barrel?

They were probably thinking that they wanted a barrel 66 centimeters long...

 

[BushMaster-15]

Gentleman ; I believe I can clear up any misconceptions surrounding the Best Military Rifle ever ,being the Finnish Mosin -Nagant 28-30

See there was this little Man with Basketball sized balls ,his name Simo Häyhä aka WHITE DEATH . Confirmed kills # 505 Germans dead WWll.

I had a private hunter guide in Africa once tell ME the Best Rifle to bring on Safari ; "The one YOU can shoot the best "

 

[tark]

See there was this little Man with Basketball sized balls ,his name Simo Häyhä aka WHITE DEATH . Confirmed kills # 505 Germans dead WWll.

That's impressive, but a high number of kills by a great sniper doesn't automatically mean that the gun he used was the best of its type.